UFC 190: Rousey vs Correia

[David]

there's absolutely no doubt that PED's played a huge part in the failure of many top Pride fighters over in the UFC, i don't hold it against anyone, them's were the times...however! it fucking sucked when they all started coming over and starting losing

 

That point was probably where I really started questioning just how much PED's were playing a part in MMA. I always knew they were around, but had no idea to which extent.

[wandshogun09]

I'm with Ebb in that I don't really blame anyone using PEDs in Pride. It was the lay of the land over there and it was on the table for everyone. It wasn't like they'd be turning a blind eye to Wanderlei gassing up but giving some schmuck lower down the card both barrels for the same offence. They didn't give a fuck if everyone was juiced to the gills.

 

It's over played as well. Sure they never tested so of course Pride fighters will get the finger pointed at them more. But look how many UFC guys are getting popped now, in 2015 when they know they're being tested much more. Are we really going to pretend the UFC guys were much cleaner when Pride was around? Look at the changes Randy Couture's body went through, in his fucking forties, no less, during that period. Look at the bastard's back in the Gonzaga fight. It's so wide you could park a caravan on it. Look at some of the physiques in the UFC in those shows between 2002-2005. Even fucking Matt Serra looks like Pride Wanderlei shrunk in the wash.

 

I'm not saying Pride fighters weren't on the gear. Of course many of them were because it simply wasn't frowned upon in that company or in the Japanese MMA scene as a whole. But the whole sport was riddled with roiders. Pride just didn't pretend otherwise. The UFC were probably marginally cleaner. I'd still guess most of the top guys were dabbling in some form of PED. It was the days before WADA and TRT and all that were ever mentioned in MMA circles and although the odd fighter would still test positive (Barnett/Sylvia etc) it happened way less than you'd think it should have knowing what we know now about just how dirty the sport is.

 

It's so easy to pin the blame on PEDs for fighters' declines. But look at the top Pride fighters who came over to the UFC...

 

Mirko Cro Cop

He came in, beat Eddie Sanchez with ease. People were saying he didn't look good because he didn't score the big headkick KO they were all expecting but he won easily within a round. What more could you expect? After that, the Gonzaga KO happened and I just think that mentally fucked with him so much he couldn't get past it for years. Couple that with him stubbornly refusing to train in a cage until much later, then add in the ridiculous run of injuries the man suffered from the 2008 knee injury on...there's plenty of reasons why his UFC run went belly up. Could a lack of PEDs be partly a factor? Sure, but there were many things going against Cro Cop having a successful UFC stint other than that as well.

 

Wanderlei Silva

Obviously with his more recent PED issues we know Wand dabbled. But I still wouldn't put his decline down to lack of PEDs. I mean, if he was legging it from the piss police in 2014, who's to say he ever stopped using? He's declined despite cheating. In fact his decline started while he was still IN Pride. People forget that and say he never looked the same since jumping to the UFC but it's false. Anyone who watched Wanderlei Silva's career chronologically will see that Wand was never the same after 2004. I'm of the opinion that the Mark Hunt fight did him in. As fun as that fight was he had no business in there with someone that much heavier. Even though he did very well and arguably should've got the decision, he took a lot of big shots off a man around 100lbs heavier than him. Plus only eight weeks before that Hunt fight, he'd had a war with Rampage (their second fight). Two of the toughest fights of his career came in an eight week timeframe. From 2005 on is when he started looking off. Then he got stopped brutally by Cro Cop in 2006 and Hendo in 2007. Added to all the miles on the clock he had already - the mental bare knuckle IVC fights etc. He was damaged goods by the time he put pen to UFC paper. It's amazing he had so many great fights in the UFC considering. PEDs or not.

 

Shogun Rua

Shogun's decline didn't come until much later in his UFC run. The loss to Forrest Griffin wasn't him declining. It was one fight, he came in gammy-kneed (not making an excuse, Forrest had a shoulder injury himself) and got outcardio'd by a cardio machine (at that time) Forrest Griffin. Then the poor showing against Coleman came after nearly 18 months on the shelf and two reconstructive knee surgeries. Of course he wasn't going to look good.

 

Anyone lumping Shogun in with the 'they didn't look the same in the UFC/without PEDs' group is off the mark IMO, because you can argue Shogun looked just as good if not better than his Pride self once he got form back after the knee injuries. He looked sharp as fuck against Liddell (everyone acts like that was an easy fight for Shogun now but at the time everyone seemed to be favouring Chuck). Then he solved the Machida puzzle and won UFC gold. His decline started after Jon Jones destroyed him. Four years after Pride shut up shop.

 

Big Nog

I've always thought with Nog the biggest thing was wear and tare. As I already covered in my Nog wankfest post in this thread, hes taken ungodly abuse in his career. Brutal and prolonged beatings that he was somehow miraculously able to come back from and win (most of the time). His UFC debut vs Heath Herring, if anything, showed he was still the Pride Nog. All anyone remembers is that big Herring headkick. But Nog bossed the other 14 minutes of that fight. Before and after the kick. That showed he still had the legendary chin. Then the Sylvia fight he got beat up for two rounds then came back with a submission. That's what he always did. Along the line though, the beatings piled up and his punch resistance finally betrayed him. He showed he could still go as late as 2009 against Couture. Even in 2013 he had decent showing in defeat against Werdum. He just can't stand up to punishment like he used to.

 

The other Pride fighters - Anderson Silva became the GOAT after Pride, Hendo had his prime years between 2009-2011 in the UFC and Strikeforce and Rampage won the UFC title the year after he left Pride.

 

Jesus, sorry for waffling.

 

Short version -

 

Basically, I don't think lack of PEDs played as big a part in Pride fighters' declining as people make out. And in light of how many fighters piss hot these days, I'm not even sure there ever was a 'lack of PEDs' in MMA.

[jimufctna24]

I believe that in the mid-00's. Pride had no drug testing policy, while the UFC had one, but it could be cheated. UFC fighters would have to cycle their PED's, whereas Pride fighters could go nuts. 

 

It's possible that some Pride fighters were flattered by PED's. It is also possible that some Pride fighters struggled to get used to cycling their PED's when they switched to the UFC in 2006/2007, which would explain why Cro Cop and others faltered. Plus, as Wand said above, Shogun was injury prone, and Wanderlei was past his best by 2005. 

 

However, when UFC fighters such as Liddell, Ricco, Vitor and Gan McGee fought in Pride, they were on a level PED playing field. They had the same system to work under as the Pride fighters. Their results were mixed at best. 

[David]

I just think that a lot of the PRIDE guys seemed to take a dip in form (and appearance for some) when they transitioned to the US to fight for the UFC is all.

[jimufctna24]

I just think that a lot of the PRIDE guys seemed to take a dip in form (and appearance for some) when they transitioned to the US to fight for the UFC is all.

Yeah, that is not an unreasonable observation.

 

I hate this thread, it reminds me of how much I enjoyed Pride in 2005/2006. Other than the Bushido cards that could be a bit of a slog, I always looked forward to every main show they produced. 

[herbie747]

I just think that a lot of the PRIDE guys seemed to take a dip in form (and appearance for some) when they transitioned to the US to fight for the UFC is all.

 

Big Nog, Crocop, and Wanderlei declined alright. But Anderson, Henderson, and Rampage did well. Shogun was somewhere in the middle; started off slow due to injury, then won the title, and then declined again. But his knees were fecked.

 

Would you not put it down to age and wear & tear too? All the Pride guys had been through more wars - and UFC rules did eliminate knees & kicks to grounded opponents. Sure they were gassed up in Pride, but I don't think any of them fully stopped when they went to UFC.

[jimufctna24]

Pretty much Herbie.

 

It's commonly acknowledged that at least 70% of MMA fighters were on PED's. It was just a case of fighters getting on the right gear in the United States, and cycling their use. The only fighters I am convinced were 100% clean were BJ Penn and Michael Bisping. (although Penn did smoke pot according to a Team Quest member)

 

It was clear that Wanderlei was not the fighter he once was by the time he arrived in the UFC. Check his 2005 fight with Yoshida, he only just about nicks a decision. He was a far cry from the Wanderlei that butchered Rampage just 6 months earlier. 

[Egg Shen]

It was clear that Wanderlei was not the fighter he once was by the time he arrived in the UFC. Check his 2005 fight with Yoshida, he only just about nicks a decision. He was a far cry from the Wanderlei that butchered Rampage just 6 months earlier.

you ain't giving Yoshida enough credit there, he fought out of his skin that night. Yoshida was a tough muthafucker with one of the legit best MMA games to ever fight in MMA. Wanderlei looked good after that too.

[Supremo]

 

Ronda scrum.

 

She seems genuinely pissed off about the suicide stuff. I'm very worried about Bethe.

[Carbomb]

The Yoshida you guys are talking about, is that Hidehiko, the Olympic silver medallist? If so, I liked him too (although I found that second match with Royce hard work, much as I wanted Yoshida to win). What happened to him? He didn't seem to be around that long.

[jimufctna24]

you ain't giving Yoshida enough credit there, he fought out of his skin that night. Yoshida was a tough muthafucker with one of the legit best MMA games to ever fight in MMA. Wanderlei looked good after that too.

Yoshida was a good fighter. You don't choke Royce Gracie unconscious without having skills. But he was never elite, or in the same tier as fighters that Wanderlei beat like Hendo and Rampage.

 

Thinking back, Yoshida did go the distance with Wanderlei in 2003, so it might have been a bad style match-up. Or I might be judging Yoshida on his later fights.

 

I recall Wand was deadly against Fujita, and got his win back over Arona. So you may have a point there.

[Egg Shen]

Yeh style wise Yoshida just gave Wanderlei problems, from what i recall he took Wanderlei down a few times with like headlock throwns. He also stood in the pocket and traded with Wanderlei which nobody expected.

[wandshogun09]

The 2003 Wand vs Yoshida fight was brilliant. That's the one where Yoshida really surpassed everyone's expectations and it was a bit of a war. Yoshida went in there as a bit of a sacrificial lamb but he came out of it with his stock raised big-time. I haven't seen it in at least a couple of years but my biggest memory of the fight is that first headlock takedown/throw thingy Yoshida hits on Wand at the start of the fight making the crowd lose their shit. It was one of the loudest reactions from a Pride crowd I ever heard. They were clearly going in expecting Yoshida to just get massacred on the feet so when he was able to hit that throw and bring the fight to 'his world' they genuinely were in shock and it seemed like for a minute he could actually win! Great fight.

 

The 2005 fight pales in comparison for me. And like I said, I don't think Wand was the same fighter by then. I really think that spell in late 2004 did him in for a long time. That eight week span where he fought Rampage and Hunt back-to-back in brutal fights seemed like it fucked him up (despite him looking great in both fights) for 2005 and beyond.

 

He only looked good against guys who were a level lower after that, like Fujita and Jardine. I didn't think he looked too good at all against Arona in the fight he won either. In fact, I think Arona may have got a raw deal on the scorecards if I'm remembering the fight accurately.

 

Wand had fleeting moments where he looked like the old Wanderlei like the awesome Cung Le and Brian Stann fights in the UFC. But he was never quite the same fighter, on a consistent basis, post-2004.

[Egg Shen]

The Stann fight in particular, fucking hell, that was insane. The part where after a flurry Wanderlei calls Stann with a smile on his face is one of them spine tingling moments for me. It's sinister as fuck.

 

...and i was gutted when he lost that first Arona fight, it was such a deflating and anti-climatic way for him to lose his undefeated streak at Middleweight.

[wandshogun09]

Arona beating Wand was shit for a few reasons.

 

1) It ended Wand's unbeaten run at 205.

2) It was a dull fight.

3) It robbed us of a Wand vs Shogun tournament final.

 

I don't know what the situation would've been if Wand had beaten Arona. Would him and Shogun have even fought? I reckon they actually would've otherwise why both enter the tournament in the first place. The way the stories go they were having full-scale wars in the Chute Boxe gym back then anyway so I think they'd have fought.

 

The Stann fight was Wand's last fight as well. Looking back I bet he wishes he just retired right after that one. It was one of the best fights of his career, in Japan and he won by knockout. You couldn't have scripted a more fitting farewell fight for him and it would've been a real feel-good moment. He stuck around and everything went to shit rapidly. What a difference a year or so made there. He was one of the most beloved and respected figures in the sport when he fought Stann in 2013. A year later he was the guy who acted a twat on TUF, ran away from a drug test and went all weird and moany to the point of alienating a lot of his own fans. 2004 was the end of Wand's prime as a fighter, 2014 was when his legacy and reputation took a beating.