Vamp Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 There's so many glorious moments in it. The hulking up, the ladder leg drop, the close up on Vince's bloodied face that him look like Satan, the ladder leg drop, Piper's return, Hogan stepping aside so that Shane could check on his father, etc. I had a discussion with someone on here about it years ago and they were cynical about the lack of logic in Vince not being dominated by Hogan and I couldn't give two shakes of monkey's uncle. It's so damn entertaining. Maybe it's a sheer mindless blockbuster but it's a bloody great one. Punch the air good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_3165 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Meltzer has some great matches on his five star list. That being said, it has some glaring omissions often on the side of the WWF/E and as such makes the list rather redundant. For example, Michaels vs Undertaker from WrestleMania 25 (from a crowd reaction and suspension of disbelief perspective) hit all the boxes yet doesn't make the top matches list. I personally thought that the KENTA vs Marufuji feud had some corkers (particularly the Autumn Navigation 2006 match) but this is not included either. When you have the likes of the repetitive and crowd reliant Kobashi vs Joe but not some other wonderful matches, then the list becomes meaningless. It's clear that Meltzer has issues with WWF/E due to the lack of matches in the list from them. WWE has had some wonderful showings particularly in the last ten years but still nothing. Â I personally thought that Shield vs Wyatts from Elimination Chamber should have been on the list but no! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted June 22, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted June 22, 2014 makes the list rather redundant the list becomes meaningless  The list is redundant/meaningless by definition when you start picking through and highlighting matches he's omitted due to his opinion of said matches, and criticizing his choices by the criteria of your own opinion of the matches. It's a reference tool, it gives you an idea of what one man thinks are the nearest-to-perfect matches you're likely to see. We're all going to have different opinions. The most useful thing about a Meltzer (or any other journo that's been watching wrestling forever) giving their maximum mark to a match, is if that match is one you haven't checked out, it might prompt you to seek it out if someone whose opinion resonates with you has deemed it unmissable. And that's the crux of it ; does his opinion resonate with you? If not, then of course his list is going to be redundant/meaningless.  Personally speaking, I always consider ***** or 10/10 to mean a match had no flaws, and so I wouldn't put Undertaker/Michaels in that category, because I don't think Shawn should have been permitted to kick out of a Tombstone. I didn't believe it, and I thought they'd wasted their perfect go-home/popshot moment. But there you go - the game is about opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenPG7 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 I remember somebody on here posting that as good as the HBK/taker matches were (and both were outstanding), that you never really thought Shawn was going to win. Fast forward to wm27 and wm28, up steps Hunter and in both matches there were spots where you thought taker was done. I'd give either HHH/taker matches 5* status over the HBK ones any day. Isn't Flair vs HBK a shout given the sheer emotion of it all? Doubt that will be replicated any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.PeterVenkman Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 makes the list rather redundant the list becomes meaningless  Personally speaking, I always consider ***** or 10/10 to mean a match had no flaws, and so I wouldn't put Undertaker/Michaels in that category, because I don't think Shawn should have been permitted to kick out of a Tombstone. I didn't believe it, and I thought they'd wasted their perfect go-home/popshot moment. But there you go - the game is about opinions.  Not being argumentative but genuinely want to know why you think that? plenty of people have kicked out of it over the years so surely in a match full of kick outs it made sense in that context at least? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted June 22, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted June 22, 2014 Not being argumentative but genuinely want to know why you think that? plenty of people have kicked out of it over the years so surely in a match full of kick outs it made sense in that context at least? Â At the point I watched that match, I was only aware of the times that the "supernatural"/cartoon era superhero characters had survived it - Hogan, Warrior, Kane. I'd been conditioned to think it knocks a normal bloke out, without exception, so Shawn kicking out of it seemed stupid to me. It's been pointed out to me in the interim that Batista had kicked out of it in one of their late-2007 title matches on PPV, but I wasn't aware of it at the time since for long periods 2006-2010 I flitted in and out of watching. At that point, the Tombstone still rendered a "mortal" unconscious to me, so I didn't agree with Michaels kicking out of it, and retrospectively I wasn't happy with Batista doing so either. Â It hasn't bothered me as much in subsequent WrestleMania matches since the precedent was set of it no longer being a certified kill... except at Mania 26 where HBK was idiotically allowed to take one on the fucking floor and not only finish the match but kick out of a second one in the ring before finally getting beaten. Ludicrous. Totally unbelievable for me, to the point of being silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members gadge Posted June 22, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted June 22, 2014 The second Michaels match led to the JUMPING TOMBSTONE~! though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.PeterVenkman Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Not being argumentative but genuinely want to know why you think that? plenty of people have kicked out of it over the years so surely in a match full of kick outs it made sense in that context at least? Â At the point I watched that match, I was only aware of the times that the "supernatural"/cartoon era superhero characters had survived it - Hogan, Warrior, Kane. I'd been conditioned to think it knocks a normal bloke out, without exception, so Shawn kicking out of it seemed stupid to me. It's been pointed out to me in the interim that Batista had kicked out of it in one of their late-2007 title matches on PPV, but I wasn't aware of it at the time since for long periods 2006-2010 I flitted in and out of watching. At that point, the Tombstone still rendered a "mortal" unconscious to me, so I didn't agree with Michaels kicking out of it, and retrospectively I wasn't happy with Batista doing so either. Â It hasn't bothered me as much in subsequent WrestleMania matches since the precedent was set of it no longer being a certified kill... except at Mania 26 where HBK was idiotically allowed to take one on the fucking floor and not only finish the match but kick out of a second one in the ring before finally getting beaten. Ludicrous. Totally unbelievable for me, to the point of being silly. Â Fair enough, agree on the one on the floor at Mania 26, was like something out of an ECW mid card match, never really thought of the Tombstone that way but I suppose it was kicked out of far less than most other finishers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 Kane kicking out of it kind of ruined its magic for me. After that it was fair game. It's a pity they didn't save it until Taker's final match (i.e against Lesnar) - can you imagine if Lesnar had been the first person to ever kick out of the tombstone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Kat Von D Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 As it cool it would be for Lesnar to have been the first person to kick out of the tombstone, all the shock from that would have been lost as soon as he ended the streak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrest Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 For me, a ***** match is something that would perfectly encapsulates what makes this insane business so brilliant. It's an entirely personal thing though, because all the matches I would choose have a personal attachment. I, for example, would probably choose Goldberg vs. Raven as a ***** match, even though there will be many out there who don't believe a five minute match could be perfect but to me, that match just never fails to put the hugest grin in the world and I still mark out every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vamp Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 There is a tendency in these things to over rate length I think. You constantly swe the phrase "if it was longer" when people are talking up matches. Bollocks really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keeper4pool Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 That list is not up to date dave went nuts over njpw in 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 There is a tendency in these things to over rate length I think. You constantly swe the phrase "if it was longer" when people are talking up matches. Bollocks really. This is very true, there's definitely a fascination with stopwatches amongst people who put much stock in the asterisks. I know someone who would gush over any match that was twenty five minutes or over, and would have horrendously dull TLC matches on Smackdown games but decide they were brilliant because they went on for three quarters of an hour. The same idiot has also convinced himself that the thing that got him into wrestling was how much he respected the great technical work of Bret Hart and Mr Perfect at SummerSlam '91. When he was five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted June 24, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 24, 2014 Matches going too long get me taking stars away at a rate of knots. Nothing like a match outstaying it's welcome andngoingnabout 10 past where it should end, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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