UFC 154: 'St Pierre vs Condit'

[wandshogun09]

No one can touch him at 170lbs? I think both Hendricks & Diaz would argue with that statement. I think his aim is not to lose to anyone, regardless of them being the best or not.

 

Where have I said that Diaz or Hendricks don't have a chance? I didn't say no-one can touch him at 170, I said he has been untouchable so far at 170. I just meant that because he's been so dominant at 170 it's only natural people want to see him fight the man who's done the same at the weight above him.

 

On your second point, yeah I get that. I'm not saying he should be content to lose to anyone. But if he really feels he can't beat Anderson then there's ways he could have got around declining the fight without dragging this on for months/years.

 

If he'd just said back in 2009 or whatever, "Anderson's too big, I'll probably never fight him unless he drops to 170", then fair enough. Why couldn't he have said that? By pissing about and not nipping it in the bud he's let it get to this point where Dana is talking dates and venues and a lot of fans want to see it.

 

If St-Pierre hadn't been out for 18 months with a career threatening knee injury, and had previously fought at 185lbs with the same success he'd had at 170lbs then I'd be all for it. He hasn't though, and the middleweight that he's being asked to fight is a guy who has already went up in weight himself and fought at 205lbs.

 

Yeah but no-one was saying he should fight Anderson his first fight back after the injury. He's back now, had a full training camp and a 5 round fight he dominated bar about a 1 minute spell in round 3.

 

And? Just because "people" are talking about the fight doesn't mean St-Pierre has to address it, does it? He only really has to answer to the UFC, and he'll do that over the coming weeks.

 

And what?

 

You said Anderson didn't want to fight Jones. I said he's already gone from saying no to showing signs of warming to the idea. Anderson has softened his stance more in 3 months than GSP has in 3 years on the superfight talk.

 

Again, I'm in no way saying GSP should have to take the fight but why did he let it get to this stage? All he had to do was say he didn't want to fight Anderson because he's got fights he wants more at 170 and he's got no plans on moving up, ever. Right there he'd have killed the talk dead. People might have moaned but he'd have made his intentions clear and everyone would have to move on.

 

I never said he "had to address it" or has to answer to anyone but the UFC. But the UFC seem to think he wanted the Silva fight so he obviously never made it clear to them that he didn't.

 

He wouldn't be bulking up on the quick though. He's been saying since 2009 that he was slowly putting muscle on. No-one's just come up to GSP in the last 6 months and said he has to bulk up quick because he's fighting Anderson.

 

If he wanted to fight Anderson he's had 3 years to bulk up. If he didn't want to fight Anderson he's had 3 years to shoot it down.

 

Simple. And of those two he was bulking up and he didn't shoot it down. So I don't blame people for thinking he would be up for the Silva fight down the line. He didn't say yes but he didn't once say no either.

 

He'll know that by bulking up he's going to lose speed and agility anyway (and he's mentioned that), and the effects of the knee injury are simply going to amplify that problem. I know these are boring, stupid little things that the likes of Dana White don't want the fans to think about when he's trying to ensure they plonk down their $60 to see the fight, but it's the kind of thing that St-Pierre and his team will be considering, and rightfully so.

 

There's pros and cons to bulking up or cutting weight. What about the effect cutting to 177 might have on Anderson?

 

If the fight was at a 177lb catchweight how much weight could he really put back on after the weigh in? It would be Anderson who would have to drain himself more than he usually does by cutting extra weight. GSP would be coming onto the scales fresher and more energetic simply by not having to have sweat off the last 7lbs.

 

Thinking about it I think the 177 catchweight would be more disadvantageous to Anderson than it would GSP. If GSP goes into the cage around 185 anyway, and he'd probably do more weights and protein for this fight to add size, he'd likely go into the cage at close to 190.

 

Anderson would cut to 177 then have 24 hours to replenish. How much weight could he healthily put back on overnight? He certainly wouldn't come in on fight night at 230 or even 220 like GSP has suggested. He'd probably put between 15-20lbs back on so you're looking at roughly 192-197lbs in the cage. 185-190 vs 192-197. Not a massive difference.

 

And to reiterate, GSP usually fights at around 185 so he'd go in feeling natural. Anderson hasn't fought below 185 for nearly a decade. Who knows what cutting the extra lbs would take out of him at 37 years old.

 

I'd love to hear Mike Dolce's thoughts on this whole thing actually.

 

The truth is, St-Pierre may take the fight due to White and the UFC pressuring him into it, but he won't win. Listen to him talking about it just now. He's giving us all the reasons why he shouldn't take the fight, and all the reasons why Anderson would win. He's already lost the fight in his head before a contract is signed.

 

If he's smart and he listens to his team he fights Hendricks then looks to build to a huge fight with Nick Diaz.

 

Baring in mind that Jones is not an option currently for Anderson...

 

Aside from maybe Chris Weidman, who at 185 has a better skillset to pose problems for Anderson than GSP? Bisping? Stann?

 

Who at 170 poses more of a threat to GSP than Anderson? Diaz? Hendricks has a punchers chance but really?

 

Anderson vs Weidman and GSP vs Hendricks, while very interesting fights are not on the level of a GSP vs Silva megafight in terms of money making potential (for both fighters and the UFC), media attention, the legacies of the fighters and historical importance.

 

I absolutely agree that if GSP doesn't want the Anderson fight then the UFC shouldn't pressure him to take it. The bit of your post which I've bolded is the only thing that's putting me off this fight. If a guy is clearly not believing he can win and his head's not in it then his chances are diminished before the opening bell.

 

But my whole point of this is that it's GSP who's allowing all this bollocks to continue. If I was GSP and I didn't want the fight I'd have said so point blank every time it was asked. He wouldn't lose face by just coming right out and saying "He's too big, it probably will never happen" than skirting around the issue for 3 years which makes him look scared.

 

When Anderson was flat out refusing to fight Jones after UFC 153 (he's changed his tune slightly since) no-one called him a coward. He was asked straight out at the press conference about fighting Jones and he just shook his head and said no...

 

 

No-one thought less of him as a fighter. If GSP had done the same as soon as talk began then it would have been dead in the water. He loses more face by not giving a straight answer one way or the other in my opinion.

 

It's at the point now where I think the only way it will happen is if Anderson agrees to drop to 170 for the fight. GSP mentioned it at the press conference and Firas Zahabi's been on about it today. In a way it's very smart because by not saying yes to the fight the ball is in GSP's court and he has a strong negotiating position to get the fight on his terms.

 

Maybe I've got it all wrong and GSP is just trying to get Anderson to agree to deplete himself by cutting to 170, thereby increasing his chances of winning. In fact he was cageside when Anderson fought Demian Maia and Rogan even said on commentary "If Anderson wins he'll fight GSP at 170". So I assume GSP agreed to it at 170 that time. Of course it went tits up after Anderson's antics in the awful Maia fight.

 

In another way it's not smart because if Anderson calls his bluff and drops to 170 and beats him he could take his title as well. Then what? Anderson moves back up to 185 and GSP wins back the belt while everyone knows Anderson bettered him in his own weight class.

 

It will be fascinating to see how this all plays out. I just think it would be a shame if the fight never happened. How many times in MMA or boxing can a fight like this be possible? Not just the top 2 fighters in their division, this is the top 2 fighters in the entire sport. It really is a once in a lifetime type fight. Well twice if we can get Silva vs Jones as well.

 

Fuck me I've gone on way too long. There's parts of your argument I totally agree with but it's clear we're not going to fully agree on this. I think Anderson Silva vs Georges St Pierre would be nothing but a positive for MMA as a whole and I truly believe it would be a better fight than a lot of people are saying. And I want to see it. I can understand why GSP wouldn't want it but at the same time it's frustrating to think a fight so massive, which I've wanted to see for years might never happen.

 

That's all.

[Egg Shen]

the part you bolded towards the bottom of your post sums up why it needs to happen...this is two genuine legends of the sport, the two best guys to ever compete in their respective weight classes hands down, and there's a chance for them both to fight in their near prime (some would argue in their prime). If it doesn't happen it's a travesty.

 

David's never on board with anything though so why are we even trying to justify it?

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

No-one thought less of him as a fighter. If GSP had done the same as soon as talk began then it would have been dead in the water.

I think GSP's in a different boat to Silva though. He'd lose face for sure now with the UFC going into promotional overdrive, but I think he would have lost face turning the fight down at different times through the last few years. Anderson can say no to fights and not look bad for it because he's a consistent staple of highlight reels. Even with stinkers like Maia and Leites on his record, you can still point to the Leben, Franklin, Henderson, Griffin, Vitor, Okami, Sonnen and Bonnar fights for tons of material that proves why Anderson Silva is the best fighter in the world. GSP has faced criticism for not finishing while other fighters finish the same level of competition in dazzling fashion. I don't think there's any period (outside maybe the Maia fight) where GSP could turn down the fight without looking like a bitch.

[David]

David's never on board with anything though so why are we even trying to justify it?

I'm 100% on board with an Anderson/Jones fight. My criteria for getting amped for a fight is a competitive bout where you don't really know who's going to win. Anderson/Jones is exactly that. Anderson/GSP isn't, unfortunately.

 

It may be that I'm the opposite of a lot of people who post here (and with it being primarily a pro wrestling board I fully understand why), but it's the actual fight that gets me excited, not the trashtalking, not the glossy, slick primetime series or any meanmugging at press conferences or whatever.

 

Those things can compliment a fight if the bout in question features two guys who are operating at the same level. If they aren't (such as the ridiculous Jones/Sonnen TUF series) then I find it hard to buy into it. Anyone can talk shit, but when you basically know that guy is going to get hammered in the fight it takes the gloss off it for me.

 

Sorry about that.

 

I don't think there's any period (outside maybe the Maia fight) where GSP could turn down the fight without looking like a bitch.

And you know why, don't you? Because the "casual fan" doesn't understand the first thing about weight divisions and the effect of packing on pounds of muscle, fight tactics, repercussions from serious injury and the effect they have on your ability to perform at such a high level. They maintain this ridiculous Ken Shamrock-era attitude of "just bleed, fucking fight, dude" that is openly encouraged by the President of the company.

 

For anyone to suggest that St-Pierre (or anyone who has regularly stepped into a cage in front of an international audience to fight the very best in the world) is a "bitch" or whatever term the US Tapout wearing overweights are using these days is simply retarded.

[Egg Shen]

David's never on board with anything though so why are we even trying to justify it?

My criteria for getting amped for a fight is a competitive bout where you don't really know who's going to win. Anderson/Jones is exactly that. Anderson/GSP isn't, unfortunately.

 

the thing you fail to understand though Dave is that most people think the fight will be competitive and that's why people want to see it. I mean seriously, what else has GSP gotta do to prove that he's better than anything the UFC can throw at him at 170lb, hasn't GSP lost like 2 rounds in his last 10 fights (41 rounds, yeh, i did the math).

 

It's easy to say Hendricks and Diaz would disagree, but Weidman, Bisping etc. would disagree at 185 also.

 

26 fights between them without defeat says it all.

[David]

the thing you fail to understand though Dave is that most people think the fight will be competitive and that's why people want to see it. I mean seriously, what else has GSP gotta do to prove that he's better than anything the UFC can throw at him at 170lb, hasn't GSP lost like 2 rounds in his last 10 fights (41 rounds, yeh, i did the math).

 

It's easy to say Hendricks and Diaz would disagree, but Weidman, Bisping etc. would disagree at 185 also.

 

26 fights between them without defeat says it all.

The issue here though is that St-Pierre isn't just stepping up in weight (as Anderson did), he's stepping up in weight after a serious knee injury and to face the very best fighter in the sport.

 

If someone had suggested the first time that Anderson fought at a higher weight that he go in with one of the very best in the weight class above him they would have been told to sit down and sort themselves out.

 

Taking the fact that he's basically one inch taller than Benson Henderson and is the same height as Kenny Florian out of the equation, he's not moving up in weight to face a sub-top ten regular sized middleweight as Anderson did at 205lbs. He's being asked to move up and face a guy who could easily compete at the top level of 205lbs.

 

That's ridiculous.

 

I can understand why some fans would be so hyped up about it (mainly the casual audience), but it would be a complete mismatch. He'd have less chance of beating Silva than Sonnen had in my opinion, and that's saying something. At least Sonnen had size on his side, being a pretty decent sized middleweight much like Anderson is.

 

The superfight to be made, and one which would at least be somewhat competitive is the Anderson/Jones fight. Both guys have fought at 205lbs before with success, making the weight no problem, and the size difference wouldn't be as huge.

 

The UFC aren't pushing for that fight though because it won't make the company as much money. That's what it comes down to in the end. It has fuck all to do with the fans wanting to see that fight more than Jones/Silva.

[Egg Shen]

your last sentence makes no sense. Surely if it's all about money then the fact that they've chosen GSP-Silva as the superfight to pursue proves that's that's the fight the fans want to see the most.

 

If there's bigger interest in Jones/Silva, surely that's where the money is, and the UFC would go after that.

 

 

[David]

Yeah, I worded that wrong, apologies. What I meant was that it has nothing to do with the fans buying into that fight as being more competitive. I believe that most would see Jones/Silva as being more competitive.

[Supremo]

The superfight to be made, and one which would at least be somewhat competitive is the Anderson/Jones fight. Both guys have fought at 205lbs before with success, making the weight no problem, and the size difference wouldn't be as huge.

 

The UFC aren't pushing for that fight though

Yes they are. Did you not watch UFC 153? Joe Rogan spent almost the entirety of Silva vs. Bonnar pushing for the Silva vs. Jones fight (saying it'd be a, "travesty," if we didn't see it), and in interviews and media scrums afterwards Dana talked at length about Anderson being in the perfect position to where he can have two super-fights, one against Georges and the other against Jones.

 

The UFC aren't pushing for that fight though because it won't make the company as much money. That's what it comes down to in the end.

No, it doesn't. They're pushing more for the GSP fight at the moment for the simple fact that Jon Jones is both injured and already has a fight booked with Chael, whereas Georges is healthy, with no fight booked, meaning their schedules and training cycles are synched perfectly. Dana says it himself in that Ariel interview; "timing means everything, we've got shows to run." Plus, as wandshogun09 noted, they're probably pushing more for the Georges fight than the Jones fight on the basis that Georges has strung them along for years, never outright stating he's not interested in the fight, giving the impression that GSP vs. Silva will be a much easier fight to negotiate and put together than Jones vs. Silva, where guys involved have definitively stated that the fight won't happen.

 

I get that you don't want to see GSP vs. Silva, that's fine, but don't start making shit up in order to downplay it. They are pushing for Jones vs. Silva and they do want to book it if schedules align. I'm sure they'd be thrilled if they managed to book both fights in 2013.

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

I get that you don't want to see GSP vs. Silva, that's fine, but don't start making shit up in order to downplay it. They are pushing for Jones vs. Silva and they do want to book it if schedules align. I'm sure they'd be thrilled if they managed to book both fights in 2013.

I think that's exactly what they're going for. If GSP/Silva happens in May (Memorial Day weekend in America, yes?), Jones/Silva would be an astronomical New Year's Eve PPV.

 

Proposed UFC Superfight/Top Champions Schedule

 

April: Jones vs. Sonnen

May: GSP vs. Silva

September: Jones vs. Hendo

October: GSP vs. Hendricks/Diaz

December: Jones vs. Silva

 

The above would make 2013 possibly the biggest year yet. Combined that with the acquisition of Rousey, increased international work, the return of Reem and the building up of the FW/LW divisions with Aldo/Edgar/Diaz/Melendez/Alvarez, and it should really be awesome.

[METAL ON METAL]

Yeah, I worded that wrong, apologies. What I meant was that it has nothing to do with the fans buying into that fight as being more competitive. I believe that most would see Jones/Silva as being more competitive.

 

It may be more competitive or it may be one-sided, no one knows - just like no one knows what'll happen between GSP/Silva. Its just a case of the usual 'MMA Expert' fans trying to predict something in an unpredictable sport.

 

And what you've got to get into your head is that its not one or the other, we don't have to have Silva/GSP or Silva/Jones - we can have both. So just enjoy the prospect of the two all-time greats in MMA history actually fighting, how often does that happen?!

 

Plus, if you were so great at predicting fights ahead of time you'd be leading on MMAPlayground.

[Egg Shen]

just found this gif. from 154 of Riddle going a little 'Pettis-esque', if this had landed flush it would have been spectacular:

 

[David]

So just enjoy the prospect of the two all-time greats in MMA history actually fighting, how often does that happen?!

For sure I'll watch it, I watch every fight. I just wouldn't be as amped up to see it as I would Silva/Jones or even St-Pierre/Diaz, that's all.

 

Plus, if you were so great at predicting fights ahead of time you'd be leading on MMAPlayground.

I always forget to put my predictions in, so I eventually just say "fuck it".

 

That's my excuse, and I'm sticking with it

[lambyUK]

Fuck, I'm late in all of this on my thoughts. I'm probably still recovering after I actually decided to stay up for this, my first since Sonnen/Silva. (although I'm off work on leave this week so I was allowed!)

 

Anyway, to keep this short, GSP/Condit was incredible and that was the best GSP I've seen in years. A GSP before this injury would have suffered the same damage from this fight as that's just the fighter Condit is. To put it short, GSP blew me away with his performance.

 

Now, Hendricks. I'm going to say it, the punch didn't even look that heavy or hard. Obviously watching it slow motion doesn't give a true reflection of the punch, but it just didn't look that bad. It almost seemed like a hard shove to the face and what really hit Kampmann was a combination of the fall and snapping back of his neck when hitting the floor.

 

And onto GSP vs Silva. I personally believe GSP has a hell of a better chance against Silva than Silva against Jones. Jones is simply a fucking monster and personally the only fighters to have (well, more than) a chance against Jones is Dos Santos, Velasquez and Overeem.

 

GSP is an athletic freak who is the complete package. Now, I still favour Silva, but GSP certainly has a better shot against Silva than Silva would against Jones.

[Egg Shen]

Joe Rogan explains his insulting commentary at 154

 

i was gonna bring that up after the show here but i forgot, what a bullshit explanation by Rogan...i see his point, but how does he explain referee's like Kim Winslow, Yves Lavigne? Im not usually someone that get bothered by something like calling someone fat, it was just the manner in which Rogan said it on the broadcast, i thought it was pretty insulting...afterwards Rogan had a couple of pops at the ref during the fight unfairly (about informing the fighters for action. Rogan mentions on the podcast that people thought he came off as a bully and that's exactly how i thought he came across.