Random thoughts thread v2 *NO NEWS ITEMS*

[CTXRussomark]

Yeah, there's always a lot of talk about TNA's problems but the number one problem to me is the lack of goodwill they have with their audience, and that dates all the way back to Raven/Jarrett. Unfortunately they have continued to build on that lack of goodwill year after year to the point not even their hardcore audience have faith that they can/will deliver on anything. And every time something does come along that people are willing to get behind and take a chance on they just get it thrown back in their faces. That's what needs to change before TNA can ever get anywhere other than where they currently are, and that's gonna take a lot of time to do.

[pgi86]

Wasn't the whole deal with Raven not winning the belt due to his short-term TNA contract expiring right before the Jarrett match and Raven not wanting to sign a new longer-term contract? I may be wrong but I seem to vaguely recall Raven talking about this in one of his gazillion shoot interviews and saying something along the lines that he regretted not signing the contract at that point and being stubborn about it since he ended up re-signing soon after that anyway.Anyway, being a TNA fan since the very first show, Raven not winning the belt was probably the biggest disappointment I've ever felt due to a TNA match outcome. That match was built up so damn well, I was super excited for it and the moment was perfect for Raven to win... and then he didn't. What major disappointment that was. And unlike Roode, who despite losing then went on to have a great run on top, Raven never quite got as hot as he was during his initial chase for the belt.

Edited June 15, 2013 by pgi86

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Ken Shamrock held the belt and he wasn't on a contract. He was on $3000 per appearance if he showed up. In fact he had to drop the title because they couldnt afford to pay him anymore. It would have been no harm whatsoever giving Raven the belt if he wasn't under contract. Its not like Raven was going anywhere. That excuse is pretty shit considering the size of TNA at the time and the people involved. Raven remained a weekly character for about 3 years after it. He had no negotiation power because there was nobody else to work for. Raven not signing a contract was a non-issue, no matter how big Raven's delusions of grandeur are. The idea that Raven not signing one of those shit 4 week contracts they were handing out at the time was the reason for them to ruin their biggest angle might be the most sad thing ever.

Edited June 15, 2013 by IANdrewDiceClay

[pgi86]

Shamrock was the exception to the rule though. After him TNA put their belt only on guys they knew they had locked under contract and couldn't go anywhere for the foreseeable future. Hence why Jarrett kept the belt all the time too - because he was the one guy who would never leave (and because he was their biggest name as well). IIRC, Raven wasn't on a 4-week deal. I believe he had signed a three-month deal (he made his debut at the end of January and the Jarrett match was at the end of April) and they wanted him to commit to a 1-year deal or something along those lines. Again, I might be wrong about this but I'm fairly certain I've heard Raven say that.

Edited June 15, 2013 by pgi86

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I fail to see how this is any kind of excuse. TNA's lack of ability to get their main draws under a deal they felt worth signing is their own fault. That still goes on today. They have let all kinds of talent go because they didn't want to pay them more than the horrible deals they have them under. Building up a match to that degree knowing one of them wasn't going to be under contract is pretty dumb. They had a packed house. You'd think if they were that terrified about it, they'd have got the deal sorted or booked the match when he had his deal sorted? At the end of the day, that murdered the momentum TNA had built up, so it was a massive mistake. If TNA cant get their house in order backstage its not the fault of the fans who felt ripped off that night. If you are working on a policy that only contracted wrestlers should hold the NWA title (a title they didnt even own), then dont put those wrestlers in positions where the fans want to see them go over.

Edited June 15, 2013 by IANdrewDiceClay

[pgi86]

It's not an excuse, nor am I saying it is. I'm just stating why the switch didn't happen, based on what I can recall. Yes, they should've had Raven locked under contract and yes, him not winning the belt was a major momentum killer for TNA. Absolutely.

[PowerButchi]

I can rarely stomach TNA anymore. It's a trust issue more than anything. Every angle I've ever invested in as a viewer has resulted in me getting burnt. Either it's had a finish that's really taken the wind out of my sails at the completion as being completely the opposite of what I wanted/expected/got behind as a fan (Raven not beating Jarrett, Roode not beating Angle, They being Fourtune, Tomko turns heel, loads more...) or it's just petered out completely into nothingness from a strong start and ends up with Glenn Gilberti as the leader of Sports Entertainment Extreme, or Nikita Koloff being under the mask or the Main Event Mafia just going "yeah, the kids are alright really" in a throwaway backstage interview. I can't be doing with it anymore when there's so much more wrestling past and present I can watch instead which won't frustrate me and make me feel like a fucking idiot or a battered wife for continuing to watch for let down after let down without ever learning my lesson and going away.Now I just watch things recommended to me. Promos and matches and stuff individually.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I haven't seen a full episode in months. I hate that its turned into NWA Hollywood. Standards have completely dropped since 2011. When you see the X Division and you see the lead stable, it sums up their talent relations department. Bruce Prichard and Al Snow might be the shitest head of talent combo in the history of wrestling. Since they took over TNA's roster has turned into pretty much low indy level talent. Look at people they've hired on their watch. Sam Shaw, Joey Ryan, Wes Brisco, Christian York, Todd Kennelly. They re-signed Matt Morgan. They let people like Alex Shelley go and keep this shower around. The level of talent is shocking that is coming through these days. What can you even do with this lot? Its not like they are young either. Most of them have been around forever. When they filled the Aces and 8s up with the likes of Garrett Bischoff, Mr Kennedy and shite like that was when it was time to pretty much accept that TNA has reached a point where they cant complete for the big names, they also cant compete with the small names. I just cant imagine TNA bringing in he likes of Ricochet, Samuray Del Soul, Prince Devitt and all these guys who WWE are no doubt going to make into household names in the next few years.When WWE's talent initiative included hiring jacked up ex footballers and steroid freaks, TNA abused that right by offering indy workers take it or leave it deals under the notion that WWE would never hire someone like the likes of the Ring of Honor roster. TNA could have had CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Dean Ambrose, Seth Rollins, El Generico, Adrian Neville, Antonio Cesaro and all those guys. In fact they did have some of those guys. TNA might never have made it super huge, but all those people on WWE tearing it up right now could have been regulars on Impact right now. CM Punk was hired by WWE on recommendation from Mick Foley. WWE had absolutely zero interest in him for years until Foley and Heyman badgered them when he got recommended for a tryout. Daniel Bryan wasn't seen as marketable by TNA, so they never even offered him a tryout. El Generico (who's currently tearing it up on TNA) had a few tryouts for TNA, but they weren't keen. When WWE had all these whacky characters and big steroid wrestlers, TNA could have been the alternative to that by putting on great wrestling every week. There is literally no way they can be an alternative to WWE now. WWE puts on world class wrestling every week and they also have the big stars. You cant out star power them and you cant put out shows where the work is better either. Its worse than ever for TNA, because the likes of Sami Callihan and Adam Cole and people who may not be ready but could potentially be something in the next few years probably aren't going to go to TNA. WWE will probably hire a good indy worker if they keep at it. TNA is seen as a place the likes of Kenny King will go in his 30s because his time is ticking.

Edited June 15, 2013 by IANdrewDiceClay

[PowerButchi]

That's a valid point. Until about 2006 the had the cream of all the US talent competing in the Super Independents, probably were only paying them $100 an appearance, and could have signed them up on proper contracts, and it probably wuldn't have cost them that much.These days their roster isn't even as good as one put forward by something like an AWE or Family Wrestling Entertainment iPPV. That's all TNA has turned into now. A mid level indy with a great TV contract. It's basically the old LAW promotion with a cable deal.

[Vamp]

Kind of following on from the above, I wonder what will happe between TNA and AAA in the next couple of years. AAA are clearly keen to work with TNA and are about to take their promotion over in the USA (and they actually look like doing it this time) and coudl benefit from getting some of their guys on TV but I wonder if TNA are keen to work with AAA on that front. You'd think they could at least fill up their X-Division if nothing else.

[Loki]

Can't share the pessimism about TNA, though I agree they've missed out on a lot of good talent over the years. Thing is, Ian, would you rather have all those names, or Hulk? Hogan doesn't come cheap, brother. You can't cream yourself over a potential Hogan-Bully match and then criticise them for Kenny King. Also, for about a month there we all thought Christian York was going to be great.And, whisper this, but... Garrett Bischoff and Wes Brisco are pretty good. I know this won't be popular with some, but Bisch junior takes a good beating, and seems comfortable as a pussy heel. And Brisco has some potential too - he had a good match with Angle, and I like when he loses control and goes a bit Incredible Hulk.I just view TNA on its merits. I don't follow indy wrestling so I don't know who is or isn't around. Equally, I rarely watch WWE. You all say that WWE it amazing right now but on the rare occasions I do bother watching it bores the shit out of me. I can see Bryan is good, and a few others, but generally the show itself drags terribly. At least with Impact, it's always entertaining. Plus I'd put the Bad Influence / Dirty Heels / Hernandez&Guerrero / James Storm combo matches up against anything else in terms of great wrestling this year.And I liked LAW

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Thing is, Ian, would you rather have all those names, or Hulk? Hogan doesn't come cheap, brother. You can't cream yourself over a potential Hogan-Bully match and then criticise them for Kenny King.

Of course I can. Because I have no standards in regards to TNA anymore, and Bully vs Hogan is something cool for me to watch for free on a stream and then get on with my life. I'd rather see Hogan in the WWE to be honest and have TNA as a thriving promotions. He'll never draw in TNA, because they over expose him and they get no value out of him. So they are getting no return out of him. Seeing something good in TNA is like putting perfume on a pig at this point. There is nothing wrong with liking Impact or their pay-per-views, because I enjoy bits and bobs and sometimes a lot of it. And sometimes most of it. But the talent depth is by far the worst its ever been. The tag division you mentioned is a perfect example of it. Why is that tag division the way it is? Its really good, but Aries, Roode and James Storm shouldn't be in the tag ranks still? James Storm was the most over wrestler on the roster in early 2012. Bobby Roode was the top heel for a year and Austin Aries broke out big as well. They should all be in the mix, fighting the good fight at the top of the card. Instead Mr Anderson and D'Lo Brown are taking up valuable time on the microphone at the top of the hour.And all those problems I mentioned happened long before Hogan came on board. There's no money in TNA anymore, but their used to be. If they'd have spent it better in 2006, they could have created their own stars now and could have been a thriving company. When one company is snapping up Seth Rollins, Roman Reigns, Big E Langston, Daniel Bryan, Dean Ambrose, Bray Wyatt, Brodie Lee, Adrian Neville and all this talent and then you look in OVW and see Cliff Compton who they cant afford to bring in and Rockstar Spud who they never use, its not filling you with much hope that anything will change.Each to his own but Wes Brisco might be the worst wrestler on earth. He's like really fucking bad. Everything about him is terrible. He doesn't seem to know which way to work, as evidence by when he turned the wrong way on the Twist of Fate the other week. His Dad is a chief scout in WWE and they even sacked him, so that says it all. The only thing he's ever done decent is that match with Angle, where Angle had a match with himself. I dont get why he's there. If you cant learn the job after years in WWE's developmental system, wrestling live on Impact isn't going to help you out at all. Edited June 16, 2013 by IANdrewDiceClay

[PowerButchi]

Is Colt Cabana one of the best carnies in wrestling? He's built himself this public gimmick of being "nice, fan friendly, super fan, pleasant people's wrestling guy", when everytime you read about someone meeting him he's outed as a total tosser, and some people who've had to work with him in a professional sense have said to me he's a bit of an arse to work with, full of demands and stuff.So, super carny indy money making worker pulling the wool over everyone's eyes, or are people just catching him on bad days or something?

[IANdrewDiceClay]

I've never heard to many things nice about him to be honest. In 2004 and stuff I did, but post WWE after his dreams have died and he's come to realise he'll never get a figure on the shelf of ASDA, you hear he's a full on bastard who treats people like shit and only mark promoters and people who are blind to it look past him being a knob because they are into him. Colt Cabana's fans are made up for people who like CM Punk and dont have a clue who Colt Cabana is. Its like when Beefcake wears his Mega Maniacs outfit on indy shows and flogs 8x10s with him and Hogan on it. When he was in developmental all the veterans hated him. Dr. Death, Dusty Rhodes, Robert Gibson, Bret Hart. It gets to that point where you think it must be him and not the vets, considering how frequent it is. "Cunt Cabana" as Mister Saint Laurant called him. MSL fucking buried him after he had him on the MLW podcast. He brought up a good point about how it must take something special for someone to have a best friend who is on top in the WWF and still not be able to get him work. There's something just wrong about the way some indy workers do business that I hate. Its always the same people. Raven, Colt Cabana, Chris Hero and that ilk. Where they charge people money to have a fucking picture taken using their own phone. How is that worth charging money? Its bullshit. I hate these wrestlers who line up with all their shit on a table hawking their merch, which isnt even their merch. Christian York sells novelty t-shirts with "Tiger Blood" on it and stuff. How are we meant to take these people as anything other than scrubs? Imagine if you were a kid and you saw Kerry Von Erich selling Action Men dolls out of a plastic box for 3 quid a go. Or Curt Hennig selling "You've Got Aids, Mark" shirts on a table at the Empire.

 

Necro Butcher on the other hand prescribes to the opposite theory:

Edited June 16, 2013 by IANdrewDiceClay

[Arch Stanton]

I think when you listen to him on his podcasts, he does come across as a genuinely nice guy, but at the same time he certainly doesn't try to hide the fact that he's out there to make a full time living from wrestling and he has to do what it takes to make as much coin as he can from the indy scene. I think he loves all the old school traditions of the business so much that if you called him the 'best carny in the business' he'd probably consider that to be a massive compliment.I quite like the guy, but I can see how his personality would rub people the wrong way.Getting chopped from WWE really kicked him in the bollocks. Up until then, he was living the dream, climbing the ladder up the business just like his other RoH mates like Punk and Joe had done. There is definitely a little bit of bitterness about him now that wasn't there before. He's on the way down now, and he only ever got halfway up the mountain.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Arch Stanton