Random thoughts thread v2 *NO NEWS ITEMS*

[IANdrewDiceClay]

The way I see it, WWE have through no fault of their own booked themselves into a corner concerning the Streak

They haven't at all. People are making out like the streak itself is something special on its own. Its not. Without a celebrity or a huge main event, the streak usually doesn't do well at all. Without Rock vs Cena, the a rematch between Triple H vs Undertaker wouldnt have done good business. The streak is a special attraction about. Like a Roddy Piper match used to be. It does a decent bump, but you can't promote it as the only attract at WrestleMania. Michaels vs Undertaker died on its arse when promoted as the featured match at WrestleMania 26. And that was with the retirement stip. The streak is only a big deal with a big star opposite him. And that could be said about every match on the card.

Edited January 17, 2013 by IANdrewDiceClay

[Carbomb]

The way I see it, WWE have through no fault of their own booked themselves into a corner concerning the Streak

They haven't at all. People are making out like the streak itself is something special on its own. Its not. Without a celebrity or a huge main event, the streak usually doesn't do well at all. Without Rock vs Cena, the a rematch between Triple H vs Undertaker wouldnt have done good business. The streak is a special attraction about. Like a Roddy Piper match used to be. It does a decent bump, but you can't promote it as the only attract at WrestleMania. Michaels vs Undertaker died on its arse when promoted as the featured match at WrestleMania 26. And that was with the retirement stip. The streak is only a big deal with a big star opposite him. And that could be said about every match on the card.

I didn't mean in terms of business, just in terms of using it as a one-off shot to give someone a massive rub. I don't think there's anyone who could benefit from taking it now. To be fair, just having the match with Taker now would be the rub in itself, I suppose.

[Big Jock Knew]

I think if they were really going to end the streak, the last plausible contender was Orton at WrestleMania 21. They got cold feet then, so I don't see who would realistically step up to the plate in the time Undertaker has left. I might be wrong, but I don't see him as the kind of guy who would be on his knees, crying, shouting "DO IT! END IT!" or something.

[Forrest]

Christ, people, this conversation ended on the last page:

 

To me, the crowing from certain pockets of fans that "*insert wrestler* NEEDS to end the streak" is just another way of saying "look how great my fantasy booking is". It has happened with Randy Orton, Batista, John Cena, CM Punk - an argument will be made for ANY given wrestler at that certain point in time given their position on the card is appropriate.

 

I think time and fan reaction has shown that the majority don't want the streak to end, so we can all stop falling over ourselves looking at ways why the streak "HAS" to end.

 

Can we please nail a parchment entitled "RE: The Streak" containing the above post to the front door ala Martin Luther, so we can be done with the tiresome streak debates?

[Carbomb]

Christ, people, this conversation ended on the last page:

 

To me, the crowing from certain pockets of fans that "*insert wrestler* NEEDS to end the streak" is just another way of saying "look how great my fantasy booking is". It has happened with Randy Orton, Batista, John Cena, CM Punk - an argument will be made for ANY given wrestler at that certain point in time given their position on the card is appropriate.

 

I think time and fan reaction has shown that the majority don't want the streak to end, so we can all stop falling over ourselves looking at ways why the streak "HAS" to end.

 

Can we please nail a parchment entitled "RE: The Streak" containing the above post to the front door ala Martin Luther, so we can be done with the tiresome streak debates?

 

Personally, I don't think it's all that tiresome. The nature of the Streak has changed quite a bit over the years, and in particular over the last four. It's worth taking a look every so often.

[air_raid]

I think time and fan reaction has shown that the majority don't want the streak to end, so we can all stop falling over ourselves looking at ways why the streak "HAS" to end.

 

So.... they'd get a pretty good heel reaction to ending it?

 

I think if they were really going to end the streak, the last plausible contender was Orton at WrestleMania 21. They got cold feet then, so I don't see who would realistically step up to the plate in the time Undertaker has left. I might be wrong, but I don't see him as the kind of guy who would be on his knees, crying, shouting "DO IT! END IT!" or something.

 

I'm guessing a big factor in Orton definitely not ending it was the fact he needed time off for his shoulder surgery. Not knowing he was injured, I was convinced he was going to do it, as it would have been a fantastic final step to rehabilitation, having recently been turned heel after the disastrous run as a baby. He'd have been SmackDown top heel straight away and they could have started building to a massive match with either Cena before the draft or Big Dave after it. He was the last guy in that position of "credible enough" to beat Taker, but also with something to gain from it. Every man he's wrestled at 'Mania since has failed on one of those two criteria. Although I freely admit the mark in me came to the surface during his match with Hunter at WMXXVII, and there were a couple of times I thought he was beaten.

 

There's no guarantee that ending the streak does anything positive long-term. It's not a title win that can just be traded back if it doesn't work. You could end up with a definitive blemish on Undertaker's legacy that was caused by a Kennedy/Lashley type who ends up in TNA or out of the job two years later. And the sole reason to have Cena end it is that it's the ultimate trolling of the Cena haters. His victory poses with them at ringside would be better than anything that happened in the attitude era.

 

But... if he were to lose to dyed-in-the-wool company man Cena, avoiding a Kennedy/Lashley situation, what have they got to lose by it? I know what you're saying about it being his "thing" and a mark of respect and all that, but I don't think the man is that big of a mark to need it to stay intact. It's been said that he's offered to lose at 'Mania more than once, including to Kurt Angle in 2006 (which would in hindsight have been a terrible waste).

 

I don't think there's anyone who could benefit from taking it now.

 

I'd agree with you, if the "Cena heel turn" wasn't an option. Again, only if Cena is thinking of calling it quits in a year's time. If he was carrying on indefinitely, it's killing the goose that lays the golden egg. If he's finishing soon, use new "EBJC that ended the streak" to help position your new crop of baby-kissing shirt shifters. The accusation levied at this scenario is it does nothing long-term for Cena in his position as established top dog - no, it's to do with the company's future. If Taker is finishing, use the streak to do something worthwhile, and if Cena's finishing up too, you'll need strong babyfaces to replace them both.

 

It reminds me a little of early 2003 when they used Hogan to make The Rock look strong to get him ready for Austin, then had Rock go over Austin to make him look stronger still, so you've got a heel on an massive wave of momentum behind him, for Goldberg to beat. It might have worked, had the match not been long and plodding and not built to Goldberg's strengths, like most of his WWE main events. Extend the scenario with Cena turning heel and becoming a massive villain, and have him work the top babyfaces for the next six, eight or twelve months, and you start getting ready for life without him and Taker, the way they were using Rock and Austin to prepare for Goldberg as top face.

 

Can we please nail a parchment entitled "RE: The Streak" containing the above post to the front door ala Martin Luther, so we can be done with the tiresome streak debates?

 

Absolutely. This discussion has been WON!1. Over the course of the next few months, all issues worth talking about in pro wrestling will continue to be WON!1 and subsequently wrapped up to free the UKFF up from tiresome debate, so all that will be left in On Topic will be tommyboi asking how ticket sales are doing for TNA's next tour and Dexter talking to himself in the ROH thread.

Edited January 17, 2013 by air_raid

[Vamp]

The problem with turning Cena heel is that quite a proportion of the people that boo him are mongs, and they'll still be mongs if Cena turns heel. They don't magically stop being mongs. They'll just be mongs who'll probably start cheering the number one heel in the company. If Cena told those people to go fuck themselves and then made children cry be chopping off Santino's Cobra and then raped Santa up the arse with it those mongs who boo him now will probably think he's the coolest thing since Disco Inferno and will a) actually go fuck themselves and put the videos on their YouTube page and whatever else to show they're cool and b) cheer the buggery out of him, drowning any babyface that tries to go against him, and thus you have a top heel who's cheered and no one to run with him because the crowd will shit on them. That's not to say Cena won't initially get jeered for screwing Undertaker over, but it won't last. Rebellious fans who don't like your product because CM Punk isn't shagging Mae Young on RAW are still going to rebel.

[Dirty Eddie]

The problem with turning Cena heel is that quite a proportion of the people that boo him are mongs, and they'll still be mongs if Cena turns heel. They don't magically stop being mongs. They'll just be mongs who'll probably start cheering the number one heel in the company. If Cena told those people to go fuck themselves and then made children cry be chopping off Santino's Cobra and then raped Santa up the arse with it those mongs who boo him now will probably think he's the coolest thing since Disco Inferno and will a) actually go fuck themselves and put the videos on their YouTube page and whatever else to show they're cool and b) cheer the buggery out of him, drowning any babyface that tries to go against him, and thus you have a top heel who's cheered and no one to run with him because the crowd will shit on them. That's not to say Cena won't initially get jeered for screwing Undertaker over, but it won't last. Rebellious fans who don't like your product because CM Punk isn't shagging Mae Young on RAW are still going to rebel.

 

You seem to have mixed up the word "mong" with the word "adult".

[ItsClobberingTime]

It's often the fact that they're adult that makes them a mong.

[air_raid]

I think that the mixed reaction you get now between mongs/people that just think he's shit booing and fans of his cheering would transform into a more universal hate - his fans now would boo, like they're meant to, the rational people that boo because they think he's shit will carry on booing because he'll still be shit to them, and hopefully they'll drown out the mongs that are just rebelling for rebelling's sake. I could be wrong, but I'd rather be given the chance to be proven wrong eventually than have Cena awkwardly perform the role of top babyface that still gets loud boos from now until the day he retires.

[Vamp]

You seem to have mixed up the word "mong" with the word "adult".

 

You seem to believe that the words 'mong' and 'adult' are mutually exclusive.

 

the rational people that boo because they think he's shit will carry on booing because he'll still be shit to them

 

But I'm not sure they will still think he's shit. I think they'll think he's being edgy and cool. You can have heels who aren't edgy, but Cena will be, because his heel act can't be him running away, its got to be him not giving a fuck about morals anymore, about him doing whatever the hell he wants, and 'adults' like that kind of character. And so what if the kids are going to boo him, they're cheering him now and you can barely hear them. I think if you turn Cena heel you might get a better performance out of him (although I tend to think he's the best performer they have now when I do tune in) but I'm not sure you're going to have a better product. I think you're going to have the issue you had when Austin turned heel and The Rock buggered off and there was no one on their level. It's not just booking, although it is that too, but whenever I tune in (and I'm not a regular viewer anymore) Cena looks like a star (and I don't just mean in terms of his body, but the way he carries himself and the aura he has) and nobody else really does. In terms of the regular roster you have Cena, then quite a few steps down Punk and then one step below him a dirge that includes everyone else. If they turn Cena heel they'll just turn Punk babyface.

[Dirty Eddie]

You seem to have mixed up the word "mong" with the word "adult".

 

You seem to believe that the words 'mong' and 'adult' are mutually exclusive.

 

the rational people that boo because they think he's shit will carry on booing because he'll still be shit to them

 

But I'm not sure they will still think he's shit. I think they'll think he's being edgy and cool. You can have heels who aren't edgy, but Cena will be, because his heel act can't be him running away, its got to be him not giving a fuck about morals anymore, about him doing whatever the hell he wants, and 'adults' like that kind of character. And so what if the kids are going to boo him, they're cheering him now and you can barely hear them. I think if you turn Cena heel you might get a better performance out of him (although I tend to think he's the best performer they have now when I do tune in) but I'm not sure you're going to have a better product. I think you're going to have the issue you had when Austin turned heel and The Rock buggered off and there was no one on their level. It's not just booking, although it is that too, but whenever I tune in (and I'm not a regular viewer anymore) Cena looks like a star (and I don't just mean in terms of his body, but the way he carries himself and the aura he has) and nobody else really does. In terms of the regular roster you have Cena, then quite a few steps down Punk and then one step below him a dirge that includes everyone else. If they turn Cena heel they'll just turn Punk babyface.

 

I just think the now cliche use of "mong" for anyone who doesn't like Cena is stupid, that's all.

 

More adults watch WWE RAW than kids, even if more revenue is produced by the younger fans. That's a fact. It's a bit of a myth that "wrestling is just for kids", despite the manor in which WWF/E has marketed itself at times. It's not insane to assume than an older fanbase gets bored of seeing the same old stuff all the time, especially long-time viewers who are used to things changing up a bit more dramatically. Even The Rock and Austin began to grow tiresome in their face roles back in the day and Cena has been in the same spot for far longing, with no major changes. Are there some actual morons who boo Cena regardless, sure, but then there are some fans who cheer every heel on a show - that's just how some fans are.

 

If Cena were to turn (and try to avoid the "cool heel" thing kicking in and ruining the point of the turn) he'd have to be a massive sell-out. It's the only way. Back in the day that would mean becoming Vince McMahon's new best friend, these days he'd need to buddy up with someone like Johnny Ace or Heyman. A real piece of shit the fans already hate. There'd be nothing cool about that.

 

In terms of faces to go against heel Cena, they have Ryback and Sheamus not too far behind who benefit hugely from big wins over evil JC. He'd also be amazing in mini TV feuds with lower types too, like when Austin beat up Spike or mocked Tazz. Imagine Cena kicking fuck out of Rey Misterio or Kofi, just for a laugh.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Dirty Eddie

[King Pitcos]

But... if he were to lose to dyed-in-the-wool company man Cena, avoiding a Kennedy/Lashley situation, what have they got to lose by it? I know what you're saying about it being his "thing" and a mark of respect and all that, but I don't think the man is that big of a mark to need it to stay intact.

It doesn't matter whether he is or isn't. The record will still stand as the greatest record in wrestling, and is always there to be referred and aspired to. Which could be worth sacrificing if the gamble was worth it. But, for example, your brackets here:

 

It's been said that he's offered to lose at 'Mania more than once, including to Kurt Angle in 2006 (which would in hindsight have been a terrible waste).

 

That could be said about anyone, including Cena if his heel turn doesn't take. There are a million ways to turn John Cena heel, just not a million reasons to. You either end up with a new babyface who is Cena again in different clothes (like Sheamus is and Kofi would be), or a total flop of an "edgy" babyface like CM Punk and Randy Orton.

 

It reminds me a little of early 2003 when they used Hogan to make The Rock look strong to get him ready for Austin, then had Rock go over Austin to make him look stronger still, so you've got a heel on an massive wave of momentum behind him, for Goldberg to beat. It might have worked, had the match not been long and plodding and not built to Goldberg's strengths, like most of his WWE main events. Extend the scenario with Cena turning heel and becoming a massive villain, and have him work the top babyfaces for the next six, eight or twelve months, and you start getting ready for life without him and Taker, the way they were using Rock and Austin to prepare for Goldberg as top face.

It's an attractive scenario, but the Austin 2001 one that Vamp proposed is more likely, and more appropriate -- there isn't a Goldberg coming in (and he was never the future even then).

 

There's no environment anymore for a Goldberg to come in from elsewhere for a dream match. There's just the people who are already there, and they've had the crowds cheers when they've fought John Cena already. There's Ryback, who has already wrestled Cena once... Sheamus, who has already wrestled Cena two hundred times... Orton, who will probably be finished before Cena and should never wrestle him again under any circumstances... Miz. Ziggler. Kofi. Punk. There's a reason that 2001 heel Austin's highlight reel is mostly just battering Lita and the Hardys with a chair and singing to Vince. It was great fun, but it made nobody and helped business not a jot. There's no real upside to heel John Cena, except having a bunch of forty year olds looking back fondly in ten years going "wrestling was shit in 2014, but that time Cena did Gangnam Style to impress Vickie and get out of defending the title was hilarious."

[Carbomb]

I don't think there's anyone who could benefit from taking it now.

 

I'd agree with you, if the "Cena heel turn" wasn't an option. Again, only if Cena is thinking of calling it quits in a year's time. If he was carrying on indefinitely, it's killing the goose that lays the golden egg. If he's finishing soon, use new "EBJC that ended the streak" to help position your new crop of baby-kissing shirt shifters. The accusation levied at this scenario is it does nothing long-term for Cena in his position as established top dog - no, it's to do with the company's future. If Taker is finishing, use the streak to do something worthwhile, and if Cena's finishing up too, you'll need strong babyfaces to replace them both.

 

It reminds me a little of early 2003 when they used Hogan to make The Rock look strong to get him ready for Austin, then had Rock go over Austin to make him look stronger still, so you've got a heel on an massive wave of momentum behind him, for Goldberg to beat. It might have worked, had the match not been long and plodding and not built to Goldberg's strengths, like most of his WWE main events. Extend the scenario with Cena turning heel and becoming a massive villain, and have him work the top babyfaces for the next six, eight or twelve months, and you start getting ready for life without him and Taker, the way they were using Rock and Austin to prepare for Goldberg as top face.

 

Actually, y'know what? I agree with you on that, now that I properly think about it. An added bonus to it would be that, as a heel, he could work a less punishing style for better reaction, and it might increase his shelf-life by a substantial amount.

 

Also, I have to disagree with Vamp that people would cheer him if he was a villain, because it doesn't necessarily follow he'll be edgy and cool as one. Cena's one of the best workers around, and, for a blue-eye, has had considerable experience in getting under people's skin in a pseudo-heel way (I'm thinking the ONS grin with the belt while that fan yells in his ear) - I think all he'd have to do is just keep doing his shtick so as to play the hypocrite card, in the way Angle did in his early years as an All-American heel.

 

EDIT: To further qualify it - that said, whilst it would be the only scenario which I could envision being acceptable to end the Streak, I honestly don't think it's worth it. It would make him a white-hot, molten villain, but he's capable of that without it anyway, I think.

Edited January 17, 2013 by Carbomb

[Mr Butternut Squash]

Anybody that usually skips Main Event would do well to tune in this week just to see

<-- click on 'spoiler' to show/hide the spoiler

Brad Maddox doing the most hilariously 'inept' commentary job ever. This guy is just fucking gold

 

[close spoiler]

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Edited January 17, 2013 by Mr Butternut Squash