The new MMA general news, events and thoughts thread

[ColinBollocks]

We'll see. I just think you get a money fight in first to get the most out of Brock.

[wandshogun09]

12 minutes ago, David said:

The thing is, if the UFC have any real inclination that Nagannou could still become a major player why would they put him in there with Lesnar (a guy who's got a very, very limited shelf life) hoping he'll lose?

Wouldn't that be them sacrificing a potential future star for a short-term fix? I know the UFC seem to work that way these days, but still.

That last bit sums it up for me. And that's why I'm thinking they'll go with Lesnar vs Ngannou. They don't seem to care anymore about building guys up for the future. Hence why they continually keep sticking their promising new talent on the Fight Pass curtain jerk bit where the only people who will see them are the same bunch of hardcore fans who are already in the bag. If you're not already a star, or at least halfway there with a look like Ngannou or something, if you're not doing all the work for them, they don't seem to want to know these days. It's why they keep having to drag Brock back and why they persist with this CM Punk thing. 

If this was 2009 or something, I wouldn't think they'd go with Lesnar vs Ngannou. Lesnar would either come back to a massive title fight right off the bat or they'd ease him in with fights like you suggest there - against an Arlovski or whoever. And Ngannou would be in a rebuilding phase now, he'd probably be fed a Cyril Asker or Rashad Coulter, or smashing Junior Albini out of his nappy or whatever. But the UFC now is all about the quick fix. Fuck the long term. I'm pretty sure we probably get Lesnar vs Ngannou on his return. Depends how long away Brock's return is, I suppose, and where Ngannou is by then though. 

Saying that, if Stipe beats DC the way he's been beating everyone else then nobody really jumps out as his next challenger. So maybe Brock gets the shot just because there's nobody else. 

[David]

11 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Wait - do you mean they're hoping Ngannou will lose, or Lesnar? I can't see why they'd be doing the former. Maybe I've missed a statement or comment - has anyone from UFC said something to that effect?

Well, if the thinking (as suggested) is to put Lesnar in there with someone he can easily out-wrestle then I'd figure it's with the hopes that he does exactly that, no?

10 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

We'll see. I just think you get a money fight in first to get the most out of Brock.

Yeah, but isn't the money going to be there regardless of who he fights? He draws on the basis that he's Brock Lesnar, doesn't he? Why waste a potential young challenger in a match where he'd likely get wrestle-fucked for three or five rounds?

Surely seeing Lesnar take on the well-known, exciting, but clearly beatable Arlovski would be a better idea? Or even a match with a hopefully returning Josh Barnett?

[ColinBollocks]

True, David. But I think Lesnar going for the title is a bigger draw. Plus, let's be honest, Stipe (should he win) could use that Lesnar rub to help him draw.

[Carbomb]

11 minutes ago, David said:

Well, if the thinking (as suggested) is to put Lesnar in there with someone he can easily out-wrestle then I'd figure it's with the hopes that he does exactly that, no?

That's not the only conclusion I would've drawn, to be honest. We also know (and have discussed on here extensively) that Lesnar is vulnerable in the striking department, so we basically have two fighters whose greatest strengths are each other's greatest weaknesses. 

Also, whilst I don't expect Ngannou to develop CroCop-level TDD any time soon, he's still young enough to have been doing some catch-up work on his wrestling since the Miocic match, and will have had a fair bit of time to do so by the time a match with Lesnar rolls around.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong; I just don't think that's the only assumption about the UFC's thinking to be extrapolated from this situation prima facie.

[David]

1 minute ago, Carbomb said:

That's not the only conclusion I would've drawn, to be honest. We also know (and have discussed on here extensively) that Lesnar is vulnerable in the striking department, so we basically have two fighters whose greatest strengths are each other's greatest weaknesses. 

Also, whilst I don't expect Ngannou to develop CroCop-level TDD any time soon, he's still young enough to have been doing some catch-up work on his wrestling since the Miocic match, and will have had a fair bit of time to do so by the time a match with Lesnar rolls around.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong; I just don't think that's the only assumption about the UFC's thinking to be extrapolated from this situation prima facie.

It wasn't me who posted that viewpoint, I was simply replying to Wand's line of thinking that "With Ngannou's apparent lack of wrestling they'll probably see that as a winnable first fight back for him", and saying that if that's true I don't know why they'd want to throw a potential future star into that kind of situation when there's other just as exciting, just as winnable fights for Brock that wouldn't knock off a potential future star.

[Carbomb]

1 minute ago, David said:

It wasn't me who posted that viewpoint, I was simply replying to Wand's line of thinking that "With Ngannou's apparent lack of wrestling they'll probably see that as a winnable first fight back for him", and saying that if that's true I don't know why they'd want to throw a potential future star into that kind of situation when there's other just as exciting, just as winnable fights for Brock that wouldn't knock off a potential future star.

Ah, sorry - for some reason I missed that. 

For me, it's an intriguing match just because of the sheer, diametrically-opposed weaknesses and strengths of both guys. Whose big guns fire first? There's also an added dimension of Ngannou being younger and probably the most explosive MMA striker ever, whilst Lesnar actually has a good record against such guys like Shane Carwin and Mark Hunt with his wrestling, hot piss notwithstanding.

I still think the best opponent for a returning Lesnar would be CroCop, really - he's past his prime enough to be much less of a threat to Lesnar, but nevertheless still dangerous enough to prevent it from being a walkover. With that in mind, it's a shame he's contracted elsewhere, but who knows? Maybe by the time Lesnar's OK-ed to fight, he'll be available.

[wandshogun09]

They probably don't see Ngannou as such a star now he's got shown up by Stipe. It's stupid, I know, because he's still got bags of potential if he's willing to put the time in on his grappling, but he's not going to be an instant world champion level guy for the UFC so he's probably not someone they see as a guy they need to protect so urgently anymore. It'd be short sighted as fuck but I could easily see them thinking 'fuck it, feed Ngannou to Brock. How much of a monster would Brock look when he comes back and steamrolls that guy?' Forgetting that it could easily backfire and they could actually be feeding Brock to Ngannou, not the other way around.

The guys steering the ship now sound like fucking idiots. Remember, these were the ones who decided it wasn't worth putting any promotional dollars behind Amanda Nunes heading into the Ronda Rousey fight because Ronda was going to walk through her  

[David]

4 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Ah, sorry - for some reason I missed that. 

For me, it's an intriguing match just because of the sheer, diametrically-opposed weaknesses and strengths of both guys. Whose big guns fire first? There's also an added dimension of Ngannou being younger and probably the most explosive MMA striker ever, whilst Lesnar actually has a good record against such guys like Shane Carwin and Mark Hunt with his wrestling, hot piss notwithstanding.

I still think the best opponent for a returning Lesnar would be CroCop, really - he's past his prime enough to be much less of a threat to Lesnar, but nevertheless still dangerous enough to prevent it from being a walkover. With that in mind, it's a shame he's contracted elsewhere, but who knows? Maybe by the time Lesnar's OK-ed to fight, he'll be available.

It is an intriguing match, definitely, but it's a no-win in my opinion.

Either Lesnar gets smashed up early doors and made to look like he doesn't belong in the cage nowadays, or he wrestles Ngannou to a decision victory probably, which isn't going to look great either.

I'd personally rather see him face a name (such as Cro-Cop, good call) that will generate excitement but also provide a decent outcome if Lesnar wins.

Just now, wandshogun09 said:

They probably don't see Ngannou as such a star now he's got shown up by Stipe. It's stupid, I know, because he's still got bags of potential if he's willing to put the time in on his grappling, but he's not going to be an instant world champion level guy for the UFC so he's probably not someone they see as a guy they need to protect so urgently anymore. It'd be short sighted as fuck but I could easily see them thinking 'fuck it, feed Ngannou to Brock. How much of a monster would Brock look when he comes back and steamrolls that guy?' Forgetting that it could easily backfire and they could actually be feeding Brock to Ngannou, not the other way around.

The guys steering the ship now sound like fucking idiots. Remember, these were the ones who decided it wasn't worth putting any promotional dollars behind Amanda Nunes heading into the Ronda Rousey fight because Ronda was going to walk through her  

I swear that this guy steering the ship has Vince fucking Russo on speed dial or something. it's becoming ridiculous really.

[Dead Mike]

How old will Brock be by the time his suspension is up? Arlovski or better still Barnett seem like the best fit for me.

[wandshogun09]

Lesnar-Cro Cop is the fight I'd make if I had my way. I think me and @Carbomb have been on about that one for a while, across a few threads. Cro Cop's fighting Roy Nelson on Bellator's London show now though so that's out. How long is Cro Cop's Bellator deal for? I guess if it's short term, and he looks OK, there's always the chance that he's free to come to the UFC by the time Brock's served his USADA time. Probably not though. 

Oh and since his name's come up a couple of times, Josh Barnett is coming back soon. I read something the other day that there's been a development in his USADA suspension case and apparently he's been cleared and the suspension has been lifted or something, I didn't read the full article but he's good to go now by the sounds of it. 

[Carbomb]

1 minute ago, David said:

It is an intriguing match, definitely, but it's a no-win in my opinion.

Either Lesnar gets smashed up early doors and made to look like he doesn't belong in the cage nowadays, or he wrestles Ngannou to a decision victory probably, which isn't going to look great either.

I'd personally rather see him face a name (such as Cro-Cop, good call) that will generate excitement but also provide a decent outcome if Lesnar wins.

I see what you mean. I wouldn't say it's 100% no-win, insofar as Ngannou winning would most likely be in pretty spectacular fashion, and get him back on the radar. And with all those people tuned in for Lesnar who missed Ngannou the first time around, it's a chance to get them on board with an exciting, upcoming star. But yeah - given how high the chances are that Lesnar could win with a boring grapplefuck victory, instead of a Ngannou highlight-reel KO, it seems an inordinately risky gamble to be taking at the moment.

[David]

The win/win scenario for all involved would surely be Lesnar putting together a few decent victories that could see him headline a few PPV's before he eventually runs into a legit top guy, all the while not seeing future stars be diminished by the process? 

That's why a Barnett, Arlovski, Cro Cop scenario would be much better in my opinion.

[Carbomb]

5 minutes ago, David said:

The win/win scenario for all involved would surely be Lesnar putting together a few decent victories that could see him headline a few PPV's before he eventually runs into a legit top guy, all the while not seeing future stars be diminished by the process? 

That's why a Barnett, Arlovski, Cro Cop scenario would be much better in my opinion.

Oh yeah, I agree with that - I was just talking in terms of the scenario being given. Ideally, I'd rather they didn't make that match either. At least, not until Lesnar's got enough of a run together, and Ngannou's rebuilt his profile (assuming that's possible, which I think it is).

@wandshogun09 - Haha, I'm no longer a newbie, I've managed to develop some instincts close to yours now!

*takes off "n00b wanker" badge

[David]

It also depends on what Lesnar's plans are. 

Is this him coming back full-time on a multi-fight deal with the intention of sticking around for three years or so? Or is it a one & done kind of thing before he buggers off back to pro wrestling?

Those factors would, for me, determine how I would book him. If he's here long-term then look to get him back on top, and if not, then throw him to someone in order to create a star for when he's gone.