NHS - time to be scrapped?

[neil]

The public are MartinQBlank - it's ridiculous how many complaints I've heard over the years because their waiting time was long, or their doctor was dismissive of their shite. My paternal grandparents were not wealthy people, and in the USA they'd have probably died younger just out of worry about bills and insurance. In the UK, they were kept alive by the NHS for a lot longer than they would have been, and they STILL found time to whine about it.

 

I've been to plenty of US doctors, hospitals and clinics, both for myself and to help out my elderly grandfather-in-law. Let me tell you, the service is shite compared to the NHS. The nurses are actually ruder, the facilities are somehow shittier, and despite his double health insurance, which is seemingly airtight, he still keeps getting bills. He gets basically a slightly worse version of NHS service, and pays insurance and overages for the privilege.

 

And yet I've heard plenty of "get rid of the NHS!" bollocks from people over the years. They are wrong, simple as that. They don't even have the excuse that yanks who are opposed have, stupid though it is. We know that the NHS doesn't cause communism, and that doctors still make a large whack of money. The only ones who seem to lose out are the big pharma companies, and they can fuck fucking off. I'd kill them all if I had a chance.

I totally disagree with this. The US healthcare system is not all good, but my experiences have been absolutely amazing. Admittedly, I live in Boston where healthcare levels are very high, but the service I got when I broke my collarbone was much better than I would've got on the NHS.

 

I don't mind the NHS, and I think they do an ok job for the resources they have, but people who go on about how amazing the NHS are clearly deluded.

[Carbomb]

Hang on - the protests and complaints over the NHS Bill was huge, it was all over the news for months, the Lords sent it back twice, you had campaigns like 38 Degrees being very public. It was the most controversial bill in recent memory. In the end it got whipped through, but it was a close thing.

 

Yep. I'm a member of 38 Degrees - we all donated towards the massive billboard campaign that went up all over the country, and our last big effort was only about a couple of weeks ago, when we set up an "anti-lobby" event. It was well-known that Capita and United Health were going to do the usual corporate "come and have some caviar and champagne" thing to shmooze consultants, GPs and NHS bigwigs, so we all donated towards doing our own event where we could put across our case. In itself, it was relatively successful - we managed to get quite a large number of healthcare professionals on board. Unfortunately, in terms of politics, it failed, largely because whilst there was a lot of intense campaigning done by concerned parties, there really wasn't much enthusiasm at a grassroots level. Apathy really is the killer.

 

I know it's not a foolproof indicator, but I do think it says something about general indifference when you can post something inane about cats or Jersey Shore on Facebook and get 20+ replies, but put up posts and Tweets galore about every stage of a political campaign concerning the fate of the NHS and not see a single comment or re-post or re-tweet. And it's not like 38 Degrees is one of those "If my group gets 50,000 likes, maybe the Lottery will donate a grand to my grandfather's arse cancer treatment" - we've been able to affect a few issues with some significant numbers.

 

Honestly - at the risk of sounding naif, I still believe the internet's our best way of effecting change in this country, provided we focus our efforts in the right direction. The old excuse of "but I'm just one person, it won't change anything" is more hollow than it's ever been - with social networking and online campaigns, it's never been easier to let each other know that none of us are alone when we want to stand for something.

[JNLister]

Good news is that the NHS have responded to the pressure of the UKFF by seeing the OP this afternoon on an emergency appointment.

 

Bad news is they've taken a look at the foot and although there's nothing majorly wrong with it and it's merely a little irritation, they've decided to amputate and give him a prosthetic instead.

[Halitosis Romantic]

The public are MartinQBlank - it's ridiculous how many complaints I've heard over the years because their waiting time was long, or their doctor was dismissive of their shite. My paternal grandparents were not wealthy people, and in the USA they'd have probably died younger just out of worry about bills and insurance. In the UK, they were kept alive by the NHS for a lot longer than they would have been, and they STILL found time to whine about it.

 

I've been to plenty of US doctors, hospitals and clinics, both for myself and to help out my elderly grandfather-in-law. Let me tell you, the service is shite compared to the NHS. The nurses are actually ruder, the facilities are somehow shittier, and despite his double health insurance, which is seemingly airtight, he still keeps getting bills. He gets basically a slightly worse version of NHS service, and pays insurance and overages for the privilege.

 

And yet I've heard plenty of "get rid of the NHS!" bollocks from people over the years. They are wrong, simple as that. They don't even have the excuse that yanks who are opposed have, stupid though it is. We know that the NHS doesn't cause communism, and that doctors still make a large whack of money. The only ones who seem to lose out are the big pharma companies, and they can fuck fucking off. I'd kill them all if I had a chance.

I totally disagree with this. The US healthcare system is not all good, but my experiences have been absolutely amazing. Admittedly, I live in Boston where healthcare levels are very high, but the service I got when I broke my collarbone was much better than I would've got on the NHS.

 

I don't mind the NHS, and I think they do an ok job for the resources they have, but people who go on about how amazing the NHS are clearly deluded.

 

Maybe it's Boston, then - my grandfather was shuttled around, treated like crap, and is now utterly in the dark about his medication. All stuff that can be leveled at the NHS, but costing him (well, mainly the insurance company) $20,000 for the whole ordeal. What I'm saying is that the NHS do a comparable job, and in my experience a better one. My experience is that my doctor costs $150 an hour for a consult, and he'll do his best to shuttle me out of the office in 10 minutes, same as an NHS GP - I've resorted to asking all sorts of daft questions, just to get my money's worth.

[CleetusVanDamme]

people who go on about how amazing the NHS are clearly deluded.

 

Yeah. Just in the last couple of years alone. I've known three people who went in for relatively minor surgery that ended up fighting for their lives through MRSA.

 

The positives of the NHS probably outweigh the negatives, and I'm not going to be someone screaming to abolish the system. But the standard of healthcare in this country is far from acceptable.

[Halitosis Romantic]

people who go on about how amazing the NHS are clearly deluded.

 

Yeah. Just in the last couple of years alone. I've known three people who went in for relatively minor surgery that ended up fighting for their lives through MRSA.

 

The positives of the NHS probably outweigh the negatives, and I'm not going to be someone screaming to abolish the system. But the standard of healthcare in this country is far from acceptable.

 

That doesn't negate a lot of the argument - I've hardly been wowed by the quality of US care, but I've certainly been wowed by the cost. Something like MRSA is a massive problem in both UK and USA, so if I'm going to put myself at risk of it, I'd rather not pay through the nose for the opportunity.

[Hyperion]

I have friends in the states that are all fucked health wise and can't afford for any of them to even go to the doctors, whereas I can go whenever I get a sniffle for free and pay next to nowt for he medication. I wish America had an NHS.

Fucking hell Blank, just ring up at crack of dawn when Doctors open and try nab any cancellation spots, you'll get in much sooner than 15th if you can't wait.

[CleetusVanDamme]

That doesn't negate a lot of the argument - I've hardly been wowed by the quality of US care, but I've certainly been wowed by the cost.

 

Oh, I'm not saying it does, and I'm not advocating the American way of doing things, because I have little to no idea how it works over there. I'm just saying that the NHS is far from the miracle service some proclaim it as.

 

I don't doubt that I'd miss it if I was forced to pay for similar treatment elsewhere, though.

[Loki]

There's no doubt the NHS needs fixing, but the reforms they're bringing through now actually end up adding MORE layers of bureaucracy not less. The commissioning process is so complex that GPs are going to have to set up paid commissioning committees to steer them through it, so rather than free the NHS from paperwork and reduce costs it's likely to increase them.

 

The last Labour government definitely improved the service overall, but at a staggering and unsustainable cost. I'm all for making it more efficient, but not like this. What angers me most is that the vast majority of doctors and nurses have loudly tried to get the point across, but the government's ploughed on through ideological zeal.

 

It's probably the hardest thing in British politics, fixing the NHS, so I don't envy the people who have to try, but you might think that listening to the people who work in it would be a first step.

[Rule One]

That doesn't negate a lot of the argument - I've hardly been wowed by the quality of US care, but I've certainly been wowed by the cost.

 

Oh, I'm not saying it does, and I'm not advocating the American way of doing things, because I have little to no idea how it works over there. I'm just saying that the NHS is far from the miracle service some proclaim it as.

 

I don't doubt that I'd miss it if I was forced to pay for similar treatment elsewhere, though.

 

In my case, it has been a miracle service. They have saved my life from testicular cancer on three occasions and the last two operations were solely on the case of blood tests. If it wasn't for such a service I'd either be dead or a cripple. (Back/neck problems too!) I'm thankful for the service we have and some people have no idea how lucky they are compared to other countries. Unfortunately the service is overwhelmed with many different cases, they have the resouces to deal with most but can't due to cost and staffing problems.

 

Long live the NHS.

 

Edit: Loki makes a very good point too.

[Carbomb]

There's no doubt the NHS needs fixing, but the reforms they're bringing through now actually end up adding MORE layers of bureaucracy not less. The commissioning process is so complex that GPs are going to have to set up paid commissioning committees to steer them through it, so rather than free the NHS from paperwork and reduce costs it's likely to increase them.

 

The last Labour government definitely improved the service overall, but at a staggering and unsustainable cost. I'm all for making it more efficient, but not like this. What angers me most is that the vast majority of doctors and nurses have loudly tried to get the point across, but the government's ploughed on through ideological zeal.

 

It's probably the hardest thing in British politics, fixing the NHS, so I don't envy the people who have to try, but you might think that listening to the people who work in it would be a first step.

 

Bang on. The NHS needs improving, we all know that - but these reforms are not the way to do it, and the answer should be improving the NHS, not scrapping it.

 

In my case, it has been a miracle service. They have saved my life from testicular cancer on three occasions and the last two operations were solely on the case of blood tests. If it wasn't for such a service I'd either be dead or a cripple. (Back/neck problems too!) I'm thankful for the service we have and some people have no idea how lucky they are compared to other countries. Unfortunately the service is overwhelmed with many different cases, they have the resouces to deal with most but can't due to cost and staffing problems.

 

Long live the NHS.

 

Likewise. They got right on to sorting out my cancer a couple of years ago, right to where I didn't need anything more than six weeks to recover from surgery - no chemo or radio needed. Whittington Hospital, Archway - fucking great hospital.

[air_raid]

I fucking love the NHS. In the last six months alone they've given me pills and a nice big injection in the arse - for FREE! - for when I put Little Raid somewhere I shouldnt have (which was not free), and some Caneston - for FREE! - for when I gave myself a girly infection by scrubbing too hard/too often out of paranoia. The only thing I've paid for is 4.65 for my drops with the conjuctivitis after I went to the eye hospital last week. Which is fuck all when I was thinking "my eye is going to get worse and fall out, and I bet its connected to the knobrot."

 

In comparison my mate in the States who lives in some pisspoor part of Alabama and is lucky he's got two sticks to rub together - seriously, he did an appeal on facebook asking for a lend of some dough just so they could afford the rent and pay some of the final notices on the bills - had to take his wife in, to get charged $800 just for xrays to then be told "there's nothing wrong with you."

[Jonathan Ford]

I totally disagree with this. The US healthcare system is not all good, but my experiences have been absolutely amazing. Admittedly, I live in Boston where healthcare levels are very high, but the service I got when I broke my collarbone was much better than I would've got on the NHS.

 

I don't mind the NHS, and I think they do an ok job for the resources they have, but people who go on about how amazing the NHS are clearly deluded.

 

Just out of interest, Neil, what made your experience so good? I work in trauma and orthopaedics, so am genuinely interested.

 

Your point about resourcing is also bang on. The NHS is a service designed to provide for need, but is now being expected to service want. This situation is entirely unsustainable. However, the way to deliver a better service isn't to allow the private sector to cherry pick the profit making aspects and leave the existing NHS hospitals to toil away with the rest. Certainly, centralising some functions such as purchasing* would help.

 

* Sorry for the Daily Mail link......

[neil]

I broke my collarbone. The service I received at the time, sling and basic x-ray was ok. They told me to go see my GP as a follow up though. I waited less than an hour in the A+E.

 

Made an appointment with my GP. Had to wait 4 days to get seen (not the best). He referred me to an orthopedic surgeon. Saw the orthopedic surgeon the next day. Got an x-ray again. He told me I needed surgery. Said it could be done the next day. I opted to wait a week.

 

Had the surgery. Was taken care of incredibly well. Nurses were all very friendly. Surgeon visited me the next day. Told me to come back to his office in 2 weeks. X-ray'd again. Given simple exercises to get the range of motion back in my shoulder. Told to come back again in 2 weeks. Very quick visit, told me to increase the exercises and told to come back in another 2 weeks.

 

X-ray'd again. Sling removed. Told to go to PT.

 

Signed up for PT. Started within 2 days. Had PT twice a week for the next 6 weeks. Shoulder and collarbone is as good as new.

 

I basically just don't see that happening with the NHS. I expect I would've had to wait around a lot longer before having surgery. I question how much followup I would've got. I also question how much PT I would've got as well.

 

Now yes. I paid money for it. My insurance is pretty good. I had to pay $200 for the surgery. The PT is what cost me the most. $40 a week. The NHS would've been no (direct) cost to me, but with that type of injury I stood the chance of having restricted range of motion if I hadn't received prompt attention and the PT I received.

[Stephanie]

As someone who lives in the US let me tell you that you don't know you're born having access to the NHS.