"You see, my mule don't like people laughing...."

[Devon Malcolm]

Credit here for the initial idea to poor Inspector Paul Solo who was going to do this thread but lost all the stuff he'd written for it and so handed it off to me.

 

So, westerns. I like westerns. Some of the first films I watched as a kid were westerns, especially Clint Eastwood ones that my dad would show me - I think one of my earliest film memories was Two Mules For Sister Sara. As a genre, it has of course slowed down over the last 30 to 35 years or so - a lot of people think that the western 'dying off' is a relatively modern thing, but it was really slowing down even while the likes of John Wayne were still around and doing them.

 

It's a general sort of discussion thread, but by way of a sort of guide as to which way the discussions might go, I've divided up westerns into what I think are five distinct categories outside of the more obvious 'classic' Hollywood westerns, in which you would probably be naming a lot of John Ford and maybe even Anthony Mann stuff.

 

1) The spaghetti western.

 

 

Notable examples of these would be, of course, 'The Dollars Trilogy'. The genesis of the genre probably started a good 50 years before Sergio Leone's now iconic series, but after it had come and gone, it became more of a buzzword for a kind of cheap European western that was largely made to cash in on that series. Plus, with many shot in Spain, the phrase 'spaghetti western' wasn't quite right - and many of them became lesser known as paella westerns.

 

That said, the likes of the Django series started around much the same time. It's also worth noting that a lot of the main players in the upcoming Italian giallo and horror market, including the likes of Lucio Fulci and Dario Argento, cut their teeth with spaghetti westerns. As a sub-genre, it's now pretty much dead but the occasional one or two still make an appearance but to largely no fanfare. That said, it's far from being a 'three film genre' as is often stated, but due to the cheap way many of these films were made and with European studios and producers being less vigilant at keeping film stock in good condition, many have now been completely lost, sadly. Getting a full appreciation of the spaghetti western genre as a whole is hard work.

 

Bloody Planet has a really great and comprehensive list of them up until the late 1980s here. The Spaghetti Western Database is also great.

 

2) The revisionist western.

 

 

The sub-genre of western that I am most interested in, but one that didn't start with Clint Eastwood's Unforgiven as is occasionally stated. This type of western started appearing during the Second World War, and was more based on the realism of the times, rejecting the 'cowboys and injuns' narrative that most up until that point had opted for. They also tended to be darker, more violent and, in some cases, just very different in that approach.

 

Take a film like High Noon, for instance, and it's a film that has quite a lot of the traditional western elements to it most notably in it being about a sheriff who heads for a showdown with an approaching killer. But by being told in real time and showing the hero, Gary Cooper, as a flawed and frightened man who was left largely on his own by a cowardly and undeserving town, it was bold and different. Similarly, the pictured The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance took many traditional western elements but gave them a darker and experimental spin.

 

The lifting of censorship laws saw the 'anti-western' flourish further. The Wild Bunch and Hang 'Em High were violent and grim affairs that explored the dirty side of the west further, and that is largely the route that this kind of western took from then on, arguably peaking with my personal favourite, High Plains Drifter - a film almost deserving of a thread on its own.

 

3) The modern western.

 

 

The revisionist western very much shapes the modern western, that's for sure. The general feeling is that trying to do a 'traditional western' these days wouldn't work at all - and really, it wouldn't. But since the mid 80s, where the western was shaken out of an almost decade long lull in quality and numbers by Clint Eastwood once again hinting at the supernatural as he did in High Plains Drifter with Pale Rider, the genre hasn't fared nearly as badly as some may have you believe.

 

Young Guns and its dire sequel had a go at the 'Brat Pack' western with huge success, all the while rewriting history, while Kevin Costner (Dances With Wolves) and Clint Eastwood were beavering away at multi-award winning and critically acclaimed westerns. It showed that the western could still function on two fronts - the more serious and realistic western and the showier crowd pleaser. The latter category would see the likes of Tombstone and The Quick And The Dead do well for themselves.

 

The last decade, though, has seen the most popular westerns come from the gritter end of the scale again - the fantastic Open Range and The Three Burials of Melquiades Estrada being notable earlier in the 2000s before several years later The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford drew all the plaudits. Even remakes such as the disappointing 3:10 To Yuma opted for a more serious tone.

 

4) The 'foreign' western.

 

 

The idea of a foreign set or foreign language western is a slightly odd one when you consider the derivation of the genre as a whole. Despite that, many films from many countries down the years have given it a shot. You can separate these from many of the spaghetti / paella westerns for the most part as most of those were set in the American west.

 

That clearly was not the case with probably the most well known and highly regarded of the foreign westerns, that being El Topo, a completely baffling and surreal film that you never quite get but never quite forget as well. Many of the foreign set westerns are completely bizarre, though - it's almost as if they feel or felt as though they had to be this way to distinguish themselves from the traditional American western and the spaghetti western.

 

As a result, you got strange movements like Ostern, a sub genre of westerns from the old Eastern Bloc, many of which are now lost. The surrealism continues up to the present day, however. Tears Of The Black Tiger is a Thailand western romance with elements of the martial arts made in 2000. It looks quite unlike anything you will ever see - but has far more style than substance. Takashi Miike also had a go at an Asian western in Sukiyaki Western Django. I got it from Poundland for a quid. Make of that what you will.

 

Perhaps because of the landscape in Australia, it's unsurprising that the Aussies have had a few goes at the genre, especially with the legend of Ned Kelly to constantly rework and reuse. They have rarely been any good, save for the notable exception of the brilliant The Proposition. On the whole, though, the foreign western is a bit of a curio but an often interesting and offbeat one.

 

5) The cross-genre western.

 

 

The western hasn't crossed with that many other genres all that successfully over the decades. The almost complete failure to produce a really good horror western, especially, is a surprise. Occasionally the likes of Near Dark and From Dusk till Dawn are credited as such, but they're not really. The closest you will get to anything decent on that front is the anthology Grim Prairie Tales, but even that isn't all that great.

 

Clearly, the action and thriller genres go hand in hand with the western. That said, the film noir / revisitionist western style of the truly great Bad Day At Black Rock is a film that showed you could revise two genres at once and come up with something utterly unique at the same time. It's pretty obvious that this section belongs to the comedy, easily the most successful cross genre area that the western has succeeded in.

 

The examples of great comedy westerns are many and plentiful. Way Out West saw Laurel & Hardy with James Finlayson in tow, sending up the Wild West perhaps as well as any film has in the last 75 years or so. Fun and high quality comedy westerns have littered cinema since then, too. Paint Your Wagon even managed to be a great musical at the same time! The pictured Blazing Saddles probably remains the highest quality film in this sub-genre, but I doubt anyone would deny that credentials of City Slickers and Back To The Future Part 3, both of which are arguably more ambitious due to their more offbeat western timelines.

 

I think a quick mention should be thrown in for Outland, too. Really, it's a straight sci-fi film in many ways - but it's a total remake of High Noon, just on a mining moon.

 

 

There is of course some crossover between these lot, but you would expect that as they are all, well, westerns. So there. Ultimately, though, the western isn't really dying off. It's slowed down and become more experimental on the whole, but it will always be around in some shape and form. Plus, I think many avenues of it remain unexplored and I think that could be the key to any future boom in the genre, should one ever occur.

[patiirc]

Absolutely cracking post that Gladders, Im not the biggest Western fan in the world, but have seen a bunch of them as time as progressed, you have mentioned many of the best films in the genre such as High Plains Drifter, Bad Day at Black Rock and so on but there are still some that are worth checking out.

 

For historical reasons The Great Train Robbery (1903) is a great starting point. Film was in its infancy and the west as was, was still in living memory. It may only be around 12 minutes long, but it contains many ground breaking techniques and is a pretty decent watch (Film History at Uni has a lot to answer for)

 

The original Stagecoach 1939, is also brilliant, It's not like an typical western, even though its one of the earliest entries in the genre. John Ford direction, John Wayne in his first or near first starring role, It's quite dark and tense and there is much made of social levels and interaction. Sure there is some Cowboys and Indian's stuff and the Coach chase has been aped a load of times, including homaged in Raiders of the Lost Ark, but its a really good film. and well worth seeking out.

 

Getting a bit hotchpotch, some of the Cartoon Westerns such as Bravestarr and yes An American Tail, Fievel Goes West, certainly bring something to the genre. Bravestarr mixes modern technology with Western and mythical law and the movie is quite dark and deep having an origin story that isnt all sweetness and light. Fievel Goes West, follows the immigrant settler theme from the first American tail film and transplants it to a western setting. Dom De Luise and John Cleese are absolute riots.

 

Comedy Westerns like Maverick, certainly are well worth seeking out. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I certainly liked it.

 

And then you have stuff with some element of cross over to Eastern, well, Kurosawa films. Last Man Standing, which is a remake of Yojimbo and The Magnificent Seven which is a remake of The Seven Samurai.

 

Some films of note not already discussed

 

Soldier Blue (1968)- Revisionist

Little Big Man (1970)- Revisionist/Comedy

Support Your Local Sheriff (1969)- Comedy

Winchester'73 (1950)- Classic

Shane- (1953)- Classic

 

I may add more later

[ReturnOfTheMack]

I never get bored of High Plains Drifter, so good!

[Devon Malcolm]

Comedy Westerns like Maverick, certainly are well worth seeking out. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I certainly liked it.

 

I loved Maverick and I was going to give it a mention but I forgot. Not sure why it copped so much stick when it was released, Mel Gibson and James Garner (who is great, by the way) are fantastic together in it. Even Jodie Foster's a hoot. I think pretty much everyone would enjoy it.

[Richie Freebird]

And then you have stuff with some element of cross over to Eastern, well, Kurosawa films. Last Man Standing, which is a remake of Yojimbo and The Magnificent Seven which is a remake of The Seven Samurai.

 

I

[Halitosis Romantic]

I am all about Shane and Red River.

[Devon Malcolm]

And then you have stuff with some element of cross over to Eastern, well, Kurosawa films. Last Man Standing, which is a remake of Yojimbo and The Magnificent Seven which is a remake of The Seven Samurai.

 

I

[Dead Mike]

It's been a while since I first saw it but I remember the mini-series 'Lonesome Dove' being great. It starred Robert Duvall, Tommy Lee Jones, Danny Glover & Angelica Huston & is well worth picking up if you can find it.

[Halitosis Romantic]

My dad has some sort of problem - he will watch any and all westerns, as long as they are on TV. Otherwise, he will not even take the shrinkwrap off of the DVDs I buy him. I might have to loot his whole collection of the classics of the genre.

[Steve Justice]

Comedy Westerns like Maverick, certainly are well worth seeking out. It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but I certainly liked it.

 

I loved Maverick and I was going to give it a mention but I forgot. Not sure why it copped so much stick when it was released, Mel Gibson and James Garner (who is great, by the way) are fantastic together in it. Even Jodie Foster's a hoot. I think pretty much everyone would enjoy it.

 

Agreed, I love Maverick.

 

I really like 3:10 To Yuma, but I've never seen the original. Do you dislike the later version because you much prefer the original? How would you rate it as a stand alone film? And speaking of remakes, what about True Grit? Again I've never seen the original, but really like the latest version.

[Devon Malcolm]

Agreed, I love Maverick.

 

I really like 3:10 To Yuma, but I've never seen the original. Do you dislike the later version because you much prefer the original? How would you rate it as a stand alone film? And speaking of remakes, what about True Grit? Again I've never seen the original, but really like the latest version.

 

I haven't seen the original 3:10 To Yuma but I thought the new version was infuriating in some ways.

 

This is the review I did on Amazon for it:-

 

Almost great. Almost.

 

In fact, if it had ended about 20 minutes earlier than it did, I might have stuck 4 stars on this. But the ending is so utterly implausible and ridiculous, relying on a ludicrous shoot-out where all of a sudden no-one can apparently hit a cow's backside with a banjo and a final scene that is so preposterously thought out that I could hardly believe it, that I almost feel annoyed at giving it 3 stars. That's how much the denouement irritated me.

 

The fact is though that, aside from one nonsensical piece of suicide on the part of a couple of the characters, there is a lot to like in 3:10 To Yuma. Bale and Crowe are excellent, bouncing off each other superbly, while Peter Fonda and Gretchen Mol do sterling work in support. But it's Ben Foster who completely steals the show, for me, with a mesmerising performance as Crowe's right-hand man. Shame he's such a terrible goalie. Arf. And for the most part, the story rattles along relatively smoothly.

 

I don't doubt that some people will love the finale and come up with a reasonable explanation for it, but in the admittedly very small post-Unforgiven world of westerns, how it chooses to end is, for me, unforgivable. Worth a look, but it's not a patch on Open Range.

[Clumsy Dad]

Great opening post.

 

Some of the first films I watched as a kid were westerns, especially Clint Eastwood ones that my dad would show me

 

Same here; it was a post Sunday dinner tradition for my dad to stick a western on. Usually a John Wayne film to start with and then as I got older we started to watch a lot of Clint Eastwood

[Steve Justice]

I see what you're saying with the end scene, but the one thing it does really well is the intensity. It's edge of the seat stuff, and just for a moment you think...

 

SPOILER - Highlight the black box to read

he's gonna make it.

 

 

I like it. In fact it was one of the first Blu-Ray's I bought, and it looks beautiful.

[Devon Malcolm]

I see what you're saying with the end scene, but the one thing it does really well is the intensity. It's edge of the seat stuff, and just for a moment you think...

 

SPOILER - Highlight the black box to read

he's gonna make it.

 

 

I like it. In fact it was one of the first Blu-Ray's I bought, and it looks beautiful.

 

It should have been edge of the seat stuff but it was just spoiled by the preceding gunfight, which wouldn't have been out of place in many other westerns, but in a western where everyone to that point had been a crack shot, it was completely absurd. It just dragged the whole thing down for me.

 

SPOILER - Highlight the black box to read

Come to think of it, Russell Crowe's face turn is nonsense as well.

 

 

It's not without its merits, and I do really like Crowe and Bale - also, like I said, Ben Foster is fantastic. Without the last 20 minutes, it's a superb western.

[DeanoTheGame]

You're right about Ben Foster. It seemed he was gonna have a cracking career for a while, he was excellent in 3:10 To Yuma and Alpha Dog. I've not seen him in anything since though.

 

The Assassination of Jesse James is a perfect film for me. It has everything. Apparently there's a directors cut floating around somewhere which is almost 6 hours long - really hope that surfaces, as the original was almost three hours and I still wanted more when it finished.

 

High Plains Drifter is in my top 10 favourite films too. Eastwod has never been better.