the psmag ps50

[NEWM]

I think the best point made in here was that you might as well not include WWE wrestlers at all in this list anymore. Whatever daftarse double standards Fin uses to measure this in, there's no way it has any constistency, and thus the only WWE (and to a lesser extent, TNA) guys who will make it will be his favourites.

 

John Cena is a phenomenal talent in my opinion. A good promo, a fabulous wrestler on a good day, and for my money the only regularly active big-time Main Event guy in the whole industry. When it comes to Wrestlemania for example (undisputedly the biggest stage in the whole business) only John Cena from the proper WWE roster (so, not including HHH, Taker, Rock or any other part time/legend figures) has the star power and charisma to stand there in the main event and actually look like he belongs. People say his character doesn't allow for elevation, and funnily enough those same people probably bum CM Punk, the man who was MADE by his work with Cena this year. Altogether, it's absolutely ridiculous that Cena isn't in the list, as little credibility as it has to begin with. If we're still calling him a wrestling journalist, it's just ignorance.

 

If Fin is so blind to Cena's contribution to the industry as a whole, he's simply a stupid fucking hypocrite to praise any other WWE wrestler like Orton or Christian for the same thing because they're all working in the EXACT same WWE system. Even Punk and his OHMYGODHEDONEASHOOT promos. It's a system John Cena carries on his back 364 days a year (he took TLC off this year). To that end, you really might as well have a Top 50 WWE list and a Top 50 everywhere else list. I think both articles could be great reads, in comparison to this years PS50, which I am confident I will skip about 62% of.

 

What gets on my tits is the good observation Pity made that all these indie or Japanese guys he loves never make a cover. Fin's not so fucking stupid when it comes to his bottom line.

[Prince Nana]

That was my point

 

I just don't posibly see how you could posibly compare John Cena to Pac or [insert random name here] anyway.

[Doomsday Device]

I think the best point made in here was that you might as well not include WWE wrestlers at all in this list anymore. Whatever daftarse double standards Fin uses to measure this in, there's no way it has any constistency, and thus the only WWE (and to a lesser extent, TNA) guys who will make it will be his favourites.

 

John Cena is a phenomenal talent in my opinion. A good promo, a fabulous wrestler on a good day, and for my money the only regularly active big-time Main Event guy in the whole industry. When it comes to Wrestlemania for example (undisputedly the biggest stage in the whole business) only John Cena from the proper WWE roster (so, not including HHH, Taker, Rock or any other part time/legend figures) has the star power and charisma to stand there in the main event and actually look like he belongs. People say his character doesn't allow for elevation, and funnily enough those same people probably bum CM Punk, the man who was MADE by his work with Cena this year. Altogether, it's absolutely ridiculous that Cena isn't in the list, as little credibility as it has to begin with. If we're still calling him a wrestling journalist, it's just ignorance.

 

If Fin is so blind to Cena's contribution to the industry as a whole, he's simply a stupid fucking hypocrite to praise any other WWE wrestler like Orton or Christian for the same thing because they're all working in the EXACT same WWE system. Even Punk and his OHMYGODHEDONEASHOOT promos. It's a system John Cena carries on his back 364 days a year (he took TLC off this year). To that end, you really might as well have a Top 50 WWE list and a Top 50 everywhere else list. I think both articles could be great reads, in comparison to this years PS50, which I am confident I will skip about 62% of.

 

What gets on my tits is the good observation Pity made that all these indie or Japanese guys he loves never make a cover. Fin's not so fucking stupid when it comes to his bottom line.

 

Great fucking post

[BiffingtonClyro]

The list is on a couple of newz~ sites now. On one of them somebody left this comment which I thought was quite funny.

 

"By Trending Worldwide

 

Wow, it looks like the people who made this list haven

[Daaaaaad!]

The absence of Cena is farcical, but arguably just as stupid is the fact that Dolph Ziggler is #38 on a chart that supposedly is based on in-ring achievement, whilst Rey Mysterio is at 23!

[Rosler28]

Yeah Dolph Ziggler has been more active than Mysterio this year so its wierd this list, anyway its just one mans opinions so who really cares, we all have opinions and we could probuably come up with our own personal top 50. Ziggler though is in my opinion the next Shawn Michaels.

 

And John Cena is the main event player in wrestling today. Weve had greats like Hogan, Flair, Rock, Austin. Now its Cenas turn. Shame its a time where wrestling isnt as big as previous years.

[Jason Mayhem]

Fin's not so fucking stupid when it comes to his bottom line.

 

Dude totally agree with everything in your post...... other than this line.

 

Fin is a complete moron when it comes to his bottom line....... why produce an anti mainstream wrestling magazine????? He's aiming at a miniscule market.

 

Anyone who picks it up because a WWE wrestler is on the cover will be completely put off once they read the editors rants, basically saying that the reader is wrong to like WWE. STOOOOOPID!!!!

 

He'd be much better off and probably sell more copies if he took the attitude of WWE is cool and enjoyable, and if you like that you may well like ROH / Dragongate etc and get more people to buy the next copy to read insight into wwe and also coverage of other stuff. Perhaps he should avoid making comment of WWE stuff, get someone who actually enjoys it to pen that stuff and stick to the indie stuff that he enjoys. Readers would much prefer to read an enthusiats view on something rather than someone bitching and moaning.

 

It is possible for people to actually like both mainstream and indie wrestling.

 

I hadn't bought powerslam in years, but then flicked through a copy in Smiths a couple of months back. I found that he was bitching and moaning about someone only selling a punch for 11 seconds. If someone has got to the point where they are sitting there with a stopwatch to time how long someone sells a move they have totally lost the ability to sit down and just enjoy wresling.

[Dirty Eddie]

For all I know, some fuckers in Mexico could be having "better" matches than CM Punk and John Cena, but you wouldn't know it from PowerSlam's list -- judging by Sin Cara's actual ability and how highly the Mexipervs rate him, I doubt there's much of note going on over there, but he was getting similar rave reviews to the Japan and ROH boys in a lot of Internet corners. If Fin can play the "too foreign/niche to bother with" card, so can I. I've worked with people I'd consider better actors than [insert Hollywood name everyone thinks is shit, Keanu Reeves or someone like that], but I wouldn't expect them to turn up on a worldwide list ahead of 'em.

 

Plus, "better matches" is subjective as fuck. I've avoided NXT for ages, but I'd rather watch a three-minute match from that than a twenty-minute Japanese head-drop extravaganza. Unless a wrestler has commanded my attention, the shorter they're on screen, the better. I don't want to see two lads I've never heard of brainbustering each other to a Musawa-esque early grave.

 

Your Keanu Reeves Vrs a nobody actor example doesn't work. We are talking about a Powerslam top 50, and that magazine covers the promotions that the "nobodies" on the list work for. You personally might not have heard of them (or give a shit about them) but regular readers probably do, even if it's only through the coverage in Powerslam. They haven't named backyarders.

 

On your second point, most wrestling matches are hugely enhanced by the backstory and angles that have lead to the matches. If you didn't watch WWE and someone showed you the great Punk/Cena match from this year you'd probably be bored senseless, because without the back-story there is no reason for any of it happening and you have no interest in the result. That's how wrestling works. You can't say "who gives a shit about two japs head-dropping each other" if you don't follow the promotion and know why they want to kill each other. The fans that actually watch and follow the product enjoy it, just as you do with WWE.

[air_raid]

Honestly, I considered staying out of this one, for a variety of reasons. But fuck it, I have an opinion, and i'll happily make it heard. As a man who has bought many ROH DVDs, watches WWE on a regular basis and happily spent a 4-figure sum going to Japan to watch their guys do the thing, I thought I could offer an opinion that doesn't fall squarely into one camp or the other.

 

Firstly, context.

 

There is a FUCKLOAD of stuff done on the indie scene which is abhorrent. Lets get that out of the way, right from the off. Selling is off, there are a load of contrived moves, silly head-drops can be used mid-match, matches can last far too long. We all know this. I've seen plenty of matches from ROH (and other feds) that felt long "for the sake of being long" in that sense of artificially trying to create a classic/epic. We all know this, and even the most ardent Martinite would agree with it.

 

Secondly, WWE is the undisputed leader in pro wrestling. They are the undisputed master in creating a card top-to-bottom with stories, i.e. a list of matches where there is a reason for the competitors to be wrestling each other, combined with fantastic production values and video packages that make you CARE about the results to each. It isn't a point worth arguing. I TRIED to be one of "those type" that only cared about indie and Puro, but little things like the Rumble and the overall feature of a decent 'Mania prevented that. It's WWE. It's THE show.

 

Thirdly and finally, there is a massive amount of missing-the-point going on from both sides of the argument. One side seems to want to argue about the relative importance of the match, why two "Kenny Kickpads I don't care about" are fighting and the scale of the promotion they are working for. IRRELEVANT. All that matters to the journos who are making THIS list is "the in-ring contributions" i.e. the quality of matches the men have had, in their eyes. The other side of the argument seems to be trying to judge the talent in terms of their "potential" or what they could have achieved without the "constraints" of whoever it is that they work for. Well, that's nice and all, but we can't possibly judge the talent on the matches they COULD have had without these constraints, only the matches they HAVE had.

 

And now the key point - the list is based soley on matches, and from what I can tell, it needs to be that you can literally pick up each match from start to finish and based purely on what happens from bell to bell, decide who is the best performer. Yes, you can argue whether that is the RIGHT way of forming a list of the "World's best 50 performers" until the cows come home, but that seems to be how Fin has chosen.

 

I play Devil's Advocate as much as I can. Davey Richards, for example, I've seen have a few really great matches. I've also seen him have some horrifically dull matches that were long for the sake of it, and quite a few matches which were impossible to get into because of crap selling, or the fact it was bleeding obvious who was going over. Conversely there is a lot of love for Chris Masters on the forum, and I'll admit I've seen him have some entertaining five-to-seven minute matches on Superstars, but am I truly going to remember any of those matches a week later? No. They are pointless filler, pleasant bubblegum matches if you will. They don't form a body of work that have you considering them for a year-end poll of the movers and shakers.

 

Here, for the hell of it, are the points I have actually sat up and taken of notice most in this thread, through either being intelligent, objective, or both, which is difficult to do when you are dealing with something so entirely subjective as the 50 best in-ring wrestlers of the last 12 months....

 

The elitist "What I watch is better than what you watch" argument is a stupid one,

 

I don't see why there's complaints about lots of Japanese/indy people in it - just because you haven't heard of them doesn't make them bad.

 

If it's such a big deal for people to think it's absurd to go past the mainstream because they and most of the reading audience don't know or care about Japan and ROH, why is it alright for Fin not to include stuff like Lucha because he himself doesn't care for it?

 

The real problems is with the indies he does use. Namely only ROH. Davey Richards at #3, but Sami Callihan not in it at all? Fucking bullshit But the fact is that Fin can't be arsed looking past the end of his nose. Especially the giant Lucha filled gap.

 

If it's just matches it's based on, there is no way Miz should be on the list and Cena not.

 

What the fuck has Mysterio done all year? Had a decent fued with Cody Rhodes, won the title and lost it again in the time it takes for a doctor's appointment then got injured for the rest of the year? He's really deserved his 23rd place, hasn't he?

 

Far funnier than the list itself are all the people who call Fin a piece of shit and his magazine rubbish - yet still seem to buy the bugger every month!

 

And, finally, a word on the winner.....

 

As an avid watcher of as much wrestling as I can get my hands on, I put forward a case in this very thread a few weeks back as to why I thought Tanahashi stood a decent shout.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he puts Tanahashi as number one as he's a good compromise between having what Fin thinks of as blinding matches (not that I disagree) and being top draw/champion of a decent-sized fed for most of the assessment period.

 

Yes, while I was over there I got to see him wrestle Bernard, Yano, Naito and others, so perhaps I was a little biased, but in terms of the quality of his title bouts (which featured no abundance of "twenty seven brainbusters" or however you want to put it) I actually felt there was a very strong case for a body of work over the last twelve months that said yes, from bell to bell, he may have been the industrys best. While the individual BEST MATCH may have been Cena/Punk, Taker/HHH or something else, I wasn't convinced there was anyone else that had delivered the same number of heart-pounding dramatic thrillers as New Japan's top dog.

 

In conclusion, there are many flaws in the list itself, but I honestly think the argument as to how Fin and his lads go about making it is both repetitive and tiresome, mostly because people miss the point.

 

Ah, but I can't be bothered making this nice long post without the REAL reason I wrote it, which was to attack THIS :

 

Top spot goes to a guy they have barely mentioned in any depth all year.

 

You either don't read the magazine, which makes you a FUCKING DICKHEAD for commenting on something you don't read, or you do read the magazine, and choose to ignore the way that every time they feature New Japan in "Looking At" there is always a sparkling write-up for Tana's latest title defence, including one write-up describing him as "pro wrestling's most competent heavyweight champion" - which makes you a FUCKING DICKHEAD.

 

Choose.

[PowerButchi]

Conversely there is a lot of love for Chris Masters on the forum, and I'll admit I've seen him have some entertaining five-to-seven minute matches on Superstars, but am I truly going to remember any of those matches a week later? No. They are pointless filler, pleasant bubblegum matches if you will. They don't form a body of work that have you considering them for a year-end poll of the movers and shakers.

 

Eat those words!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx560rlH8zs - One of the greatest matches of 2011. Fucking spectacular.

 

And, while I'm somewhat normally on your wavelength Pity, Lucha rules. It's not Mexipervs, it's the fucking world's best. Black Terry? Negro Navarro? Yes Please!

[cobystag]

Out of that list, there's only 6 of them I've never seen live (hopefully that will change when I get to see NJPW live) and I got to see 21 of the list live during the course of the year.

 

I can't argue against Tanahashi at #1. The guy has been the face of NJPW for the entire year of 2011, his Title win against Kojima headlined Wrestle Kingdom which is NJPW's Wrestlemania, and all of his Title defenses have been PPV main events. As the face and main star of NJPW he can be pin-pointed as one of the reasons as to why NJPW has maintained their position as the top promotion in Japan and have had the strongest draws. He's had some cracking Title defenses against the likes of Nagata, Nakamura, Goto and Naito.

 

I can buy Davey so high up, but it's ridiculous that Eddie is 13 places beneath him. Eddie has had as strong a year as Davey match quality wise, if perhaps not just a little stronger. The only advantage Davey has is his booking in NJPW against how Edwards is booked in NOAH.

 

Don't really think Devitt had that strong of a year to be so high up. His Jnr Title defenses this year didn't seem as good as his ones last year as he's found his groove with his 13 minute matches that all kind of had the same flow, and his Jnr Tag Title matches, Taguchi and their opponents were as responsible for how good those matches were. And with Taguchi's matches in the BOSJ and against Ibushi, the fact that he's 38 places beneath Devitt is fucking ridiculous.

 

Same with Shingo. He was out injured for the first three months of the year, but didn't lose a step when he returned. He's been involved in some incredible tag matches and had great singles matches against Mochizuki, Hulk, Tozawa, but I don't think he's had that much of a stronger year than the other three.

 

In fact I would say YAMATO had a much stronger year and was probably DG's MVP of 2011 but he's not on that list at all. And it was his feud against Tozawa that really helped establish Tozawa as one of the top guys in his return to DG, so to have Tozawa at 14 but not include YAMATO at all is bullshit.

 

I thought Shiozaki had a stronger 2011 than Sugiura and KENTA so should be above them.

 

Other glaring omissions are Jun Akiyama who had a career revival this year with his works in the CC, GTL, GHC Title feud against Shiozaki and TC feud against Suwama. Daisuke Sekimoto had a fantastic year with his work in All Japan, Zero One and Big Japan. Kotaro Suzuki had a fantastic year as GHC Jnr Champ and the ANMU vs No Mercy feud so was probably the best Jnr Champ out of all the Japanese promotions, better than Devitt, Ibushi and Nakajima, but is not on the list.

 

Can't comment on the WWE/TNA guys as I don't follow either promotion closely enough to have an opinion but even I recognize Cena should be on this list.

[King Pitcos]

Your Keanu Reeves Vrs a nobody actor example doesn't work. We are talking about a Powerslam top 50, and that magazine covers the promotions that the "nobodies" on the list work for.

Yes, and it pretends the nobodies are as good as the proper wrestlers. Some of the PS Universe go along with it, some don't.

 

On your second point, most wrestling matches are hugely enhanced by the backstory and angles that have lead to the matches. If you didn't watch WWE and someone showed you the great Punk/Cena match from this year you'd probably be bored senseless, because without the back-story there is no reason for any of it happening and you have no interest in the result. That's how wrestling works. You can't say "who gives a shit about two japs head-dropping each other" if you don't follow the promotion and know why they want to kill each other. The fans that actually watch and follow the product enjoy it, just as you do with WWE.

The difference is that you could watch, understand and enjoy the Punk/Cena build-up without being the crazy world of Arthur Brown (although the fence foals did enjoy it more, I think).

 

And, while I'm somewhat normally on your wavelength Pity, Lucha rules. It's not Mexipervs, it's the fucking world's best. Black Terry? Negro Navarro? Yes Please!

Sin Cara has made me doubt every Lucha star who gets praised now. I like Del Rio, but Mistico is one of the worst wrestlers that's ever made it to the big time so I've taken against everyone from Mexico who wasn't on my telly by last Christmas. That said, I'll give Black Terry a chance, because his name's great. Sounds like someone my dad would have worked on the doors with.

[King Pitcos]

And now the key point - the list is based soley on matches

 

Odd, then, that Bully Ray's write-up includes "cutting the finest promos of his career" and "deliberately sent himself up in many entertaining segments."

 

Unrelated, but I've just looked at a few of the listings and Miz and Del Rio's are largely taken up by Fin complaining about Evil Cena burying them.

 

Edit: Fuck, sorry about the double-post, everyone. I thought the board automatically combined them now.

[Dirty Eddie]

Your Keanu Reeves Vrs a nobody actor example doesn't work. We are talking about a Powerslam top 50, and that magazine covers the promotions that the "nobodies" on the list work for.

Yes, and it pretends the nobodies are as good as the proper wrestlers. Some of the PS Universe go along with it, some don't.

 

On your second point, most wrestling matches are hugely enhanced by the backstory and angles that have lead to the matches. If you didn't watch WWE and someone showed you the great Punk/Cena match from this year you'd probably be bored senseless, because without the back-story there is no reason for any of it happening and you have no interest in the result. That's how wrestling works. You can't say "who gives a shit about two japs head-dropping each other" if you don't follow the promotion and know why they want to kill each other. The fans that actually watch and follow the product enjoy it, just as you do with WWE.

The difference is that you could watch, understand and enjoy the Punk/Cena build-up without being the crazy world of Arthur Brown (although the fence foals did enjoy it more, I think).

 

So on the first point you have ignored my point to take another dig at Powerslam, and on the second you make a lame joke, because obviously only mainstream American wrestling is understandable and that foreign stuff is just rubbish.

 

Good work making two complete non-points.

 

If you have nothing to say, you could have just been quiet for a change.

[Guest]

Honestly, I considered staying out of this one, for a variety of reasons. But fuck it, I have an opinion, and i'll happily make it heard. As a man who has bought many ROH DVDs, watches WWE on a regular basis and happily spent a 4-figure sum going to Japan to watch their guys do the thing, I thought I could offer an opinion that doesn't fall squarely into one camp or the other.

 

Firstly, context.

 

There is a FUCKLOAD of stuff done on the indie scene which is abhorrent. Lets get that out of the way, right from the off. Selling is off, there are a load of contrived moves, silly head-drops can be used mid-match, matches can last far too long. We all know this. I've seen plenty of matches from ROH (and other feds) that felt long "for the sake of being long" in that sense of artificially trying to create a classic/epic. We all know this, and even the most ardent Martinite would agree with it.

 

Secondly, WWE is the undisputed leader in pro wrestling. They are the undisputed master in creating a card top-to-bottom with stories, i.e. a list of matches where there is a reason for the competitors to be wrestling each other, combined with fantastic production values and video packages that make you CARE about the results to each. It isn't a point worth arguing. I TRIED to be one of "those type" that only cared about indie and Puro, but little things like the Rumble and the overall feature of a decent 'Mania prevented that. It's WWE. It's THE show.

 

Thirdly and finally, there is a massive amount of missing-the-point going on from both sides of the argument. One side seems to want to argue about the relative importance of the match, why two "Kenny Kickpads I don't care about" are fighting and the scale of the promotion they are working for. IRRELEVANT. All that matters to the journos who are making THIS list is "the in-ring contributions" i.e. the quality of matches the men have had, in their eyes. The other side of the argument seems to be trying to judge the talent in terms of their "potential" or what they could have achieved without the "constraints" of whoever it is that they work for. Well, that's nice and all, but we can't possibly judge the talent on the matches they COULD have had without these constraints, only the matches they HAVE had.

 

And now the key point - the list is based soley on matches, and from what I can tell, it needs to be that you can literally pick up each match from start to finish and based purely on what happens from bell to bell, decide who is the best performer. Yes, you can argue whether that is the RIGHT way of forming a list of the "World's best 50 performers" until the cows come home, but that seems to be how Fin has chosen.

 

I play Devil's Advocate as much as I can. Davey Richards, for example, I've seen have a few really great matches. I've also seen him have some horrifically dull matches that were long for the sake of it, and quite a few matches which were impossible to get into because of crap selling, or the fact it was bleeding obvious who was going over. Conversely there is a lot of love for Chris Masters on the forum, and I'll admit I've seen him have some entertaining five-to-seven minute matches on Superstars, but am I truly going to remember any of those matches a week later? No. They are pointless filler, pleasant bubblegum matches if you will. They don't form a body of work that have you considering them for a year-end poll of the movers and shakers.

 

Here, for the hell of it, are the points I have actually sat up and taken of notice most in this thread, through either being intelligent, objective, or both, which is difficult to do when you are dealing with something so entirely subjective as the 50 best in-ring wrestlers of the last 12 months....

 

The elitist "What I watch is better than what you watch" argument is a stupid one,

 

I don't see why there's complaints about lots of Japanese/indy people in it - just because you haven't heard of them doesn't make them bad.

 

If it's such a big deal for people to think it's absurd to go past the mainstream because they and most of the reading audience don't know or care about Japan and ROH, why is it alright for Fin not to include stuff like Lucha because he himself doesn't care for it?

 

The real problems is with the indies he does use. Namely only ROH. Davey Richards at #3, but Sami Callihan not in it at all? Fucking bullshit But the fact is that Fin can't be arsed looking past the end of his nose. Especially the giant Lucha filled gap.

 

If it's just matches it's based on, there is no way Miz should be on the list and Cena not.

 

What the fuck has Mysterio done all year? Had a decent fued with Cody Rhodes, won the title and lost it again in the time it takes for a doctor's appointment then got injured for the rest of the year? He's really deserved his 23rd place, hasn't he?

 

Far funnier than the list itself are all the people who call Fin a piece of shit and his magazine rubbish - yet still seem to buy the bugger every month!

 

And, finally, a word on the winner.....

 

As an avid watcher of as much wrestling as I can get my hands on, I put forward a case in this very thread a few weeks back as to why I thought Tanahashi stood a decent shout.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he puts Tanahashi as number one as he's a good compromise between having what Fin thinks of as blinding matches (not that I disagree) and being top draw/champion of a decent-sized fed for most of the assessment period.

 

Yes, while I was over there I got to see him wrestle Bernard, Yano, Naito and others, so perhaps I was a little biased, but in terms of the quality of his title bouts (which featured no abundance of "twenty seven brainbusters" or however you want to put it) I actually felt there was a very strong case for a body of work over the last twelve months that said yes, from bell to bell, he may have been the industrys best. While the individual BEST MATCH may have been Cena/Punk, Taker/HHH or something else, I wasn't convinced there was anyone else that had delivered the same number of heart-pounding dramatic thrillers as New Japan's top dog.

 

In conclusion, there are many flaws in the list itself, but I honestly think the argument as to how Fin and his lads go about making it is both repetitive and tiresome, mostly because people miss the point.

 

Ah, but I can't be bothered making this nice long post without the REAL reason I wrote it, which was to attack THIS :

 

Top spot goes to a guy they have barely mentioned in any depth all year.

 

You either don't read the magazine, which makes you a FUCKING DICKHEAD for commenting on something you don't read, or you do read the magazine, and choose to ignore the way that every time they feature New Japan in "Looking At" there is always a sparkling write-up for Tana's latest title defence, including one write-up describing him as "pro wrestling's most competent heavyweight champion" - which makes you a FUCKING DICKHEAD.

 

Choose.

A few paragraphs in a ppv write up isn't any great depth. So if that makes me a dickhead too soo be it. Bought every issue over last year, and I had to read the paragraph to know who he was