the psmag ps50

[ScotstounsOwn]

I think the best point made in here was that you might as well not include WWE wrestlers at all in this list anymore. Whatever daftarse double standards Fin uses to measure this in, there's no way it has any constistency, and thus the only WWE (and to a lesser extent, TNA) guys who will make it will be his favourites.

 

John Cena is a phenomenal talent in my opinion. A good promo, a fabulous wrestler on a good day, and for my money the only regularly active big-time Main Event guy in the whole industry. When it comes to Wrestlemania for example (undisputedly the biggest stage in the whole business) only John Cena from the proper WWE roster (so, not including HHH, Taker, Rock or any other part time/legend figures) has the star power and charisma to stand there in the main event and actually look like he belongs. People say his character doesn't allow for elevation, and funnily enough those same people probably bum CM Punk, the man who was MADE by his work with Cena this year. Altogether, it's absolutely ridiculous that Cena isn't in the list, as little credibility as it has to begin with. If we're still calling him a wrestling journalist, it's just ignorance.

 

If Fin is so blind to Cena's contribution to the industry as a whole, he's simply a stupid fucking hypocrite to praise any other WWE wrestler like Orton or Christian for the same thing because they're all working in the EXACT same WWE system. Even Punk and his OHMYGODHEDONEASHOOT promos. It's a system John Cena carries on his back 364 days a year (he took TLC off this year). To that end, you really might as well have a Top 50 WWE list and a Top 50 everywhere else list. I think both articles could be great reads, in comparison to this years PS50, which I am confident I will skip about 62% of.

 

What gets on my tits is the good observation Pity made that all these indie or Japanese guys he loves never make a cover. Fin's not so fucking stupid when it comes to his bottom line.

 

thank fuck someone said it

[King Pitcos]

So on the first point you have ignored my point to take another dig at Powerslam,

I wasn't ignoring your point. I was informing you that your point ("PowerSlam's list is credible because PowerSlam often mentions Japanese wrestlers") is ridiculous if one doesn't blindly follow PowerSlam's beliefs in the first place. You're using the same logic as those "the Bible is true because the Bible says so" people, and it's completely invalid unless you already share Fin's views on ROH and Japanese wrestling. I'm not arguing against Fin's right to make that list according to his (and your) preferences, but you seem to believe that the PS50 is above criticism for some reason.

 

and on the second you make a lame joke, because obviously only mainstream American wrestling is understandable and that foreign stuff is just rubbish.

Not necessarily rubbish, just niche. It's for people who buy soiled pants out of vending machines. To each their own and all that, I just don't want to see shitty knickers stuff in amongst normal porn. Then you've got some people who like scat and regular porn and wouldn't mind the combination, and some people who love scat and think regular porn is too mainstream for their refined tastes. Whichever of those two categories you fit into, surely you can see why 2girls1cup makes most of us heave.

[air_raid]

A few paragraphs in a ppv write up isn't any great depth. So if that makes me a dickhead too soo be it. Bought every issue over last year, and I had to read the paragraph to know who he was

 

Honestly, I was just livid at what I thought was a dickheaded, throwaway "let's laugh at PS' list, hur hur hur" remark, complete with rolleyes.

 

There is plenty to criticize about the list, but the selection of Tanahashi as top dog is something I have no qualms about, and the wording to the effect of Tana's main event being dynamite on every New Japan card covered is ample when you consider some of the superlatives Fin has dropped in about the match quality which very few WWE matches have earned from him this year (outside of the Christian/Orton PPV matches) and even fewer individuals that have garnered consistent praise for having belters (again with Christian and Orton the noted exceptions, who also placed highly). There has been enough commentary in the mag about Hash's form over the year to illustrate to the attentive regular reader that Findlay considers him one of the world's best and most consistent, hence my calling him grabbing top spot weeks ago.

 

In terms of covering anything Japanese "in depth", that would go against the fundamental criticism of the mag in general, wouldn't it? That Fin covers mainly WWE and some TNA despite not rating or enjoying either, purely because Randy Orton on the cover sells copies and Kenny Kickpads doesn't. Using yourself as an example, you didn't know who Tanahashi was despite buying every issue - so, Martin is right not to do in-depth coverage of Puro or indie - because that's not why you buy it, right?

 

He's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't. When he publishes on mainly WWE and TNA, he's criticized for slagging it off - which admittedly while I can appreciate a lot if his points, the way he puts it across is often incredible assinine and juvenile - and yet when he dares to suggest the alternative, that guys working elsewhere are having better matches - he is ridiculed either for the opinion itself, or some perceived hypocracy in not covering these promotions more - promotions no-one cares about, apparently - when in fact it would be much stupider for him to have been writing about how shit he thinks WWE has been for the previous annum, and then loaded his list of the best performers with WWE wrestlers that he's been tearing strips off for the last 12 months.

 

What you have, yet again, is an army of guys that buy the magazine every month despite going on about how rubbish it is, then come on here and whine about how rubbish it is, and this, the annual "laugh at bloke whose opinion differs from mine" convention, where a lorryload of posters waving their proud "Fin Martin's opinion doesn't matter" banner procede to dive headfirst into the thread and post a great deal of verbage about said opinion. While the irony is delicious, the thread(s) itself/themselves grow(s) increasingly tiresome and become less and less about PS or the PS50 and more to do with two sets of fans with conflicting tastes trying to convince the other that they're right, while a guy like me sits back and thinks "Its all wrestling, so I like it, albeit for different reasons."

 

I might ask Santa to ban discussions of the PS50 this time next year.

[The King Of Swing]

Conversely there is a lot of love for Chris Masters on the forum, and I'll admit I've seen him have some entertaining five-to-seven minute matches on Superstars, but am I truly going to remember any of those matches a week later? No. They are pointless filler, pleasant bubblegum matches if you will. They don't form a body of work that have you considering them for a year-end poll of the movers and shakers.

 

Eat those words!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx560rlH8zs - One of the greatest matches of 2011. Fucking spectacular.

 

And, while I'm somewhat normally on your wavelength Pity, Lucha rules. It's not Mexipervs, it's the fucking world's best. Black Terry? Negro Navarro? Yes Please!

 

INVERTED ATOMIC DROP, INVERTED ATOMIC DROP, INVERTED ATOMIC DROP

 

A picture perfect 90's TV style wrestling match, that's the kind of wrestling I miss.

[Big Rob]

The list would be even more ridiculous if it was a top 50 of WWE guys, TNA guys who used to be in WWE and one or two token Japanese or indy guys just so a casual fan doesn't have their brain hurt too much. I can kind of see your logic, but I think the problem is more that Fin seems to hate WWE, or at least certain kinds of wrestlers in WWE, rather than his love of the indys and Japanese wrestling being a problem.

You keep saying that not all of the top 50 wrestlers in the world don't have to have good jobs in wrestling, which in essence is a valid point, but in that list, 62% of them (or thereabouts, if I've fucked up the maths) can't get telly jobs with the major global promotions. By anyone's standards, that is an absurd statistic. Reasons for the absurdity may differ -- I'll say it's because MOOOOVEZ~ don't make a good wrestler so the list is shite, whereas the shrub rocketeers will say it's because WWE and TNA sux and for some reason don't want the best talent.

There is a shred of truth in the last thing you say though - obviously it's not that they don't want the "best" talent in terms of in ring guys, but some of the top guys aren't there because of fantastic wrestling skill. The Miz, for example, is likely there because he's a very hard worker, is a good PR guy and can also have decent matches. Which is obviously fine, and a good reason to want to him as part of the company. Same with someone like Mason Ryan - by his own admission, he's not nearly ready for TV, and there are a ton of guys on the indy circuit better than him, but at the same time he has a fantastic look, so he's more likely to get a TV job as he stands out. And then there's another aspect to consider with foreign wrestlers - if you have 50 main roster wrestlers, then no matter how good they might be, you're noing to want say ten Japanese guys who speak limited to no English on TV.

[Dirty Eddie]

So on the first point you have ignored my point to take another dig at Powerslam,

I wasn't ignoring your point. I was informing you that your point ("PowerSlam's list is credible because PowerSlam often mentions Japanese wrestlers") is ridiculous if one doesn't blindly follow PowerSlam's beliefs in the first place. You're using the same logic as those "the Bible is true because the Bible says so" people, and it's completely invalid unless you already share Fin's views on ROH and Japanese wrestling. I'm not arguing against Fin's right to make that list according to his (and your) preferences, but you seem to believe that the PS50 is above criticism for some reason.

 

and on the second you make a lame joke, because obviously only mainstream American wrestling is understandable and that foreign stuff is just rubbish.

Not necessarily rubbish, just niche. It's for people who buy soiled pants out of vending machines. To each their own and all that, I just don't want to see shitty knickers stuff in amongst normal porn. Then you've got some people who like scat and regular porn and wouldn't mind the combination, and some people who love scat and think regular porn is too mainstream for their refined tastes. Whichever of those two categories you fit into, surely you can see why 2girls1cup makes most of us heave.

 

If you'd read what I've been posting and not just looking for spelling errors you'd see that I've said I'm not actually endorsing this particular list, I'm just arguing against your point of view that nothing outside of WWE has any place on the list. I think that's ridiculous, as PS covers these other promotions and so should take their wrestlers into account when forming a top 50.

 

I don't at all think the 50 is above criticism, I've already said Cena should be in and Miz out if it's all about in-ring wrestling. Again, perhaps try and read my actual points. Here is what I said earlier on...

 

I'm not for a second saying that the list is a great list, the 'correct' list or that Fin puts the right amount of reasonable thought into it, but it makes sense for the PS50 to cover companies and countries that it often features. No, it's not "fair" necessarily because they can't include everyone, but ultimately no magazine can cover the entire, complete world of pro wrestling, so they include people from companies that their magazine does cover

 

I think that referring to every non-WWE wrestler (that you haven't personally seen wrestle) a "nobody" is ignorant to the high quality wrestling that can be found in many other places.

 

Ignoring your silly porno rant, niche is a far better way of putting it, but that again doesn't reduce it's quality. There are plenty of music styles that are very niche too, but you can't write them all off as shit because they don't break the top 40 singles charts. Well, you can, but you'd be a bit thick.

[Prince Nana]

Pitcos seem's to have a way of making evreything bout fin martin without actually reading what people are saying.

[Trevor]

You'd think after seeing his continued correction of spelling errors, you might have taken a bit more care when spelling such complex words as "seem" and "everything".

[Prince Nana]

If I cared, yes.

[King Pitcos]

If you'd read what I've been posting and not just looking for spelling errors you'd see that I've said I'm not actually endorsing this particular list, I'm just arguing against your point of view that nothing outside of WWE has any place on the list. I think that's ridiculous, as PS covers these other promotions and so should take their wrestlers into account when forming a top 50.

Like I just told you, "Power Slam mentions Japanese wrestlers so therefore them being on the list is valid" only works if you already think the way Fin does. Power Slam covers MMA as well, I still wouldn't include Cagefight McDonald in the top 50 pro wrestlers in the world. In the same way that Bizarre magazine doing a feature on scat porn wouldn't convince me that Sandy Shitpants is one of the world's top pornstars. Just because that list represents Fin and Eddie's tastes, doesn't mean it represents mine. I'm not saying you're not allowed to like it (or like some of it, I know your order would be different), Eddie.

 

niche is a far better way of putting it, but that again doesn't reduce it's quality. There are plenty of music styles that are very niche too

You've gone silly again like a lot of your kind do, thinking that ROH (for example) is a meaningful guitar band that everyone cool listens to and WWE is some mainstream pap like Rhianna that nobody with taste would put on. The common delusion amongst Dem Wans. The reason that sort of snobbery doesn't work is that wrestling doesn't have that broad scope, it's all one genre. It's Rhianna and Rhianna pub tribute acts, some of which are a bit different because they appeal to the perverse (like a bloke dressed up as Rhianna who smashes lightbulbs over his own head as he sings) but it's all the same songs. The only real difference is the production value and the number of people listening.

 

If you want a real analogy, look at wrestling's closest cousin in the performing arts, panto. Some people probably thought the panto at their school was better than the big one in town with soap stars and Pamela Anderson in, and a proper set (note: This analogy doesn't apply to WWE Glasgow house shows).

[Dirty Eddie]

MMA is an actual sport, where winning matches gets you to the top, it isn't pro wrestling so you can't compare the two in that sense.

 

So if the WWE is the "Bestest Panto In The World", with Barry from Eastenders and Cilla Black, the entire Japanese wrestling industry (for example) can be classed as "school panto" in comparison? Bollocks. Even at the simplest level, Pro Wrestling is about making money. I'd imagine the top Japanese wrestling stars make more money than WWE Jobbers, without even working as many dates.

[Big Rob]

Just dawned on me that Big Show isn't on the list. Seriously? The guy's had an awesome year, and has good matches with pretty much everyone.

[King Pitcos]

So if the WWE is the "Bestest Panto In The World", with Barry from Eastenders and Cilla Black, the entire Japanese wrestling industry (for example) can be classed as "school panto" in comparison?

No, it's a panto that means fuck all outside of Japan, whereas Barry and Cilla (or rather, their WWE equivalents) are huge stars in Japan as well as their home country. Look at how much John Cena means to Japanese fans, then compare that to how much Tanahashi means to fans outside of Japan. Imagine the difference in excitement between a Japanese lad waking up this morning to a John Cena DVD and figure, and an American lad waking up to a Tanahashi DVD and figure. Worlds apart.

 

I've got a CM Punk dressed up as Macho Man figure for me Christmas, so I'm happy enough.

[PowerButchi]

Just dawned on me that Big Show isn't on the list. Seriously? The guy's had an awesome year, and has good matches with pretty much everyone.

 

Because it's 1999 and he's the Big Slow/Big Slob. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Fin doesn't even watch WWE anymore but sees the results off 411Mania or somewhere and just thinks "Oh, it's Cena/Show/Henry. I don't like him, he must have had a shocker."

[PepperPlunge]

Give up, PITCOS. It's undeniable that wrestling has different styles. Japanese wrestling draws big crowds. Mexican wrestling also draws big crowds. WWE is a brand that has successfully marketed itself globally. It doesn't mean that because Tanahashi isn't part of that globally marketed brand, he's any worse. The panto analogy is a bad one. It's completely downsizing the industry. Cena isn't Dave Benson Phillips and Kenta Kobashi isn't a school kid.

 

You seem to feel as though because WWE is a successful company, you must justify their decision making and reason that all of the best wrestlers are from WWE. You seem to have a blinkered view of wrestling and assume anyone outside of the top promotions all drop themselves on their heads and do a hundred lariats a match. I'm a bit guilty of that myself, I confess. I don't keep up with wrestling outside of WWE. Your real gripe seems to be with those who turn their nose up at WWE as they're too 'smart' for it. It's as though you are waving the WWE flag in the face of an army of 'smart' internet fans. Except you're not. There are goons who laugh at people who watch WWE, there are people who appreciate different types of wrestling including WWE and there are people who solely watch the top dogs.

 

I, and many others, aren't defending Fin's list. It's ridiculous that Rey is so high and Cena not in there at all. But you must appreciate that there are different opinions to yours and that an indy wrestler might have put out some better matches, despite not being visible on a grand scale, than others.

 

I kind of empathise though as when I watch indy wrestling, I feel the vast majority don't understand selling, have no character/a rubbish niche character like bloody ants that are supposed to be comedy, and throw a load of lariats or a load of flips for an 'epic' match. Their cards don't tend to flow at all either. That last point is irrelevant in this list if you're taking each match at face value though. Discounting Japanese wrestlers is silly. Their style fits with their culture; it's not my cup of tea when people bring that style to the western world where it doesn't fit with the culture so well. My gripe is also professional wrestlers not understanding that to make a living, they need to go to Japan if they're gonna do that style or adapt to the WWE style if they're gonna stay in the western world or they're dropping people on their heads for nothing.

 

I think you just get annoyed when you see names you don't know.