Gadaffi captured/killed

[Keith Houchen]

So we hate the libyan rebels now for killing a defenceless old man?..... i mean apart from the fact he's a murderous tyrant who inflicted misery and untold deaths on his people for 40 years... But yeah HIS human rights were violated here...

That's the problem with things such as Human Rights, isn't it though? They apply to everyone.

Exactly, the way some people talk they seem to think Human Rights only apply to criminals and immigrants. The Tyrant has gone but the tyranny hasn't.

[Merzbow]

So we hate the libyan rebels now for killing a defenceless old man?..... i mean apart from the fact he's a murderous tyrant who inflicted misery and untold deaths on his people for 40 years... But yeah HIS human rights were violated here...

That's the problem with things such as Human Rights, isn't it though? They apply to everyone. Even those who inflicted misery and untold deaths on their people for 40 years (although I've been hearing that things weren't quite that bad in Libya as our press would have us believe).

 

A few Humanitarian groups over in Libya were saying that a lot of the crap the media was saying is bullshit, mainly about the killings and rapes.

[David]

So we hate the libyan rebels now for killing a defenceless old man?..... i mean apart from the fact he's a murderous tyrant who inflicted misery and untold deaths on his people for 40 years... But yeah HIS human rights were violated here...

That's the problem with things such as Human Rights, isn't it though? They apply to everyone. Even those who inflicted misery and untold deaths on their people for 40 years (although I've been hearing that things weren't quite that bad in Libya as our press would have us believe).

A few Humanitarian groups over in Libya were saying that a lot of the crap the media was saying is bullshit, mainly about the killings and rapes.

As usual, the truth is somewhere in between the ridiculous stories we've been given I think. Basically, if you tried to overthrow his Government or make moves against him, he fucked you up big time.

 

If you played by the rules and were a good Gaddafi-supporting citizen, you did alright. By "alright" I mean you got free University education, cheap oil, and wouldn't find yourself short on medical care or housing.

 

Basically, if you bought into his hype you lived better than a fair chunk of the British population do.

[David]

I see that Venezuelan President Hugo Ch

[Vice]

Yeah, they only execute people like Gadaffi don't they?

 

Oh, no wait...

 

It's bizarre isn't it? I thought war was all honourable and clean like the old black and white WW2 films, and now it turns out bad things happen during conflict. I must attend a demo in London to protest, right after I buy a new thermos.

So does that make it okay or somehow acceptable? We're just meant to accept such atrocities and try not to bring those responsible for a heinous crime to account?

 

So we hate the libyan rebels now for killing a defenceless old man?..... i mean apart from the fact he's a murderous tyrant who inflicted misery and untold deaths on his people for 40 years... But yeah HIS human rights were violated here...

That's the problem with things such as Human Rights, isn't it though? They apply to everyone.

Exactly, the way some people talk they seem to think Human Rights only apply to criminals and immigrants. The Tyrant has gone but the tyranny hasn't.

No one ever said that. Human rights apply to everyone, including suspects and criminals. And we have to remember that, because, when it isn't the case, horrible and shameful things like executions in the street and Guantanamo Bay happen. If you truly believe that the violation of someone's human rights is a reprehensible thing, why would you then in turn do that yourself? There's a proper way to deal out justice, and it's not by an unlawful revenge killing. The rule of law is there to separate us from criminals and thugs.

 

I've disliked the rebels from the start, these aren't holier than thou freedom fighters looking to save everyone. Good luck being a black man in Libya with these guys taking over, i've read a ton about the racism from them during this whole thing.

What we've seen of the 'new Libya' so far has been rotten; the summary execution of Gaddafi, rounding up and lynching black people, and the summary execution of 53 others.

[big mickey]

Yeah, they only execute people like Gadaffi don't they?

 

Oh, no wait...

 

It's bizarre isn't it? I thought war was all honourable and clean like the old black and white WW2 films, and now it turns out bad things happen during conflict. I must attend a demo in London to protest, right after I buy a new thermos.

 

Yes bad things happen, but being killed in combat is a huge fucking difference than being executed in the streets.

 

If Gadaffi had fought to his last, so be it, but he was captured and defeated, regardless of his crimes, shooting an unarmed captured man in the head in public is cold blooded murder is it not?

[David]

It's quite simple really, NATO saw a small group of so-called rebels that they could manipulate and use to get rid of Libyan head of state Muammar Gaddafi. He didn't kneel to the western powers, and certainly wasn't afraid of them.

 

A man worthy of more respect than the likes of Blair, Bush, Obama, Cameron & Sarkozy, that's for sure.

[bobbins]

Yeah, they only execute people like Gadaffi don't they?

 

Oh, no wait...

 

It's bizarre isn't it? I thought war was all honourable and clean like the old black and white WW2 films, and now it turns out bad things happen during conflict. I must attend a demo in London to protest, right after I buy a new thermos.

What utter bollocks. Slaughtering captives isn't regular wartime practice, it's a massive war crime.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

While I agree with the NATO actions (going by the information I know up to now) and I dont care about the death of Gadaffi in general what happened was certainly wrong, but understandable.

 

 

 

Libya's new government has bowed to international pressure and announced an investigation into last week's killing of Muammar Gaddafi, as officials in the coastal city of Misrata ordered a halt to public viewing of the dictator's decomposing corpse.

 

Mustafa Abdel-Jalil, head of the ruling national transitional council (NTC), said a committee had been set up to look into the circumstances of the deaths of Gaddafi and his son Mutassim in Sirte, the scene of the regime's last defiant stand. He said Libyans would have preferred to see the deposed leader stand trial and be held accountable for his crimes.

 

New evidence of atrocities emerged with a report that the bodies of 53 Gaddafi loyalists, some of them bound and shot in the head, had been found in Sirte.

 

No arrangements have yet been made for Gaddafi to be buried and the Misrata council has refused to release his body to his relatives. Al-Arabiyya TV reported that it was possible he would be buried at sea, and local residents were refusing to have him interred even in a special cemetery set aside for "invaders".

 

A third body in the Misrata meat storage facility is that of the old regime's army commander, Abu Bakr Younis. Guards finally closed the doors on Monday as people queued up to have a look at the grisly scene inside.

 

Libyan TV channels continue to screen video footage of Gaddafi's final moments as well as scenes of rebel fighters squatting around his corpse and cursing him in the cold store. Monday's newspapers showed yet more gory images on their front pages.

 

"We have formed a committee to investigate how Gaddafi was killed during the clashes with his supporters while arresting him," Abdel-Jalil said in Benghazi. "All Libyans wanted to prosecute him over what he did to them, from executions to imprisonment, corruption, wasting their money. Those who have an interest in killing him before prosecuting him are those who had an active role with him."

 

Observers suggested the NTC move had been prompted by expressions of concern from the US, Britain and other countries about the rule of law and human rights in post-Gaddafi Libya. John Jenkins, the UK ambassador, saw Abdel-Jalil in Benghazi before Sunday's ceremony marking the formal liberation of the country.

 

Mahmoud Jibril, the NTC prime minister and the man credited with securing western and Nato support for the rebels, had already said he was in favour of an investigation.

 

Abdel-Jalil indicated that the NTC still held to the initial official explanation that Gaddafi may have been killed in "crossfire" with his own men

[David]

The problem is, if Gaddafi had been captured alive and tried for crimes against humanity there was a good chance he wouldn't have been convicted. The only actual legal reason for taking him was an international arrest warrant which was issued by INTERPOL in 1978 for the disappearance of Iranian born Imam Moussa Sadr.

 

There was plenty of talk about "possible" charges from the ICC and so forth, but nothing concrete. The very fact that the US, UK & other "respectable" nations of the west held good relations with Gaddafi is also suspect. If he was a terrible dictator who destroyed his country and neglected his people then why were we on good terms with him?

 

It would have been worth him being tried simply to hear what he could have told us about his dealings with UK & US Governments in the past. He would have been a man with nothing to lose by then, which is why I believe the intention was never to allow such a trial to take place.

 

This investigation will find nothing.

[Glen Quagmire]

How many times do people at large need to be reminded that the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend? Nothing seems to be learned much on this. Gaddafi was perhaps a tyrant to many of his fellow people, but many others lived OK under him, not brilliant but were able to get on with life. To me Neoconservatism is hypocritical in interfering in the internal affairs of foreign countries for their own needs yet scorns at the thought of having its government machine try and give a little bit of help to relieve some of its own countrymen and women.

 

It's at times like this that I wish the UK was more like Switzerland and Sweden in being more mindful of its own business rather than get involved in the squabbles of others.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

@David.

Maybe, but is it better that they try (even if only a little) and fail than they do nothing? I think so. As for Gaddafi, I think he'd have been found guilty of various breaches of human rights acts (as would others, so lets not worry about diverting yeah?). As for his 'good' relations, I wouldnt bet too much on how good they were. We tolerated them I think is the best way of putting it in real terms, but diplomacy was the watchword of the day as they say. Relations were so bad that the UK had several trade restrictions on Libya, I know this as my stepdad works in international trading and Libya was one of his clients, he had so many hoops to jump through to dal with any deals because of these restrictions (that obviously became more strict during the uprising, they still havent been relaxed properly yet).

[David]

@David.

Maybe, but is it better that they try (even if only a little) and fail than they do nothing? I think so. As for Gaddafi, I think he'd have been found guilty of various breaches of human rights acts (as would others, so lets not worry about diverting yeah?). As for his 'good' relations, I wouldnt bet too much on how good they were. We tolerated them I think is the best way of putting it in real terms, but diplomacy was the watchword of the day as they say. Relations were so bad that the UK had several trade restrictions on Libya, I know this as my stepdad works in international trading and Libya was one of his clients, he had so many hoops to jump through to dal with any deals because of these restrictions (that obviously became more strict during the uprising, they still havent been relaxed properly yet).

The more cynical among us would say that those trade restrictions had as much to do with Libyas self-sufficient banking system as it did any human rights violations.

 

Coincidentally, It'll be interesting to see what any new regime does regarding the banking system in Libya.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

Heh, yeah Im not saying thats why, just that it wasnt as friendly as your post seemingly implied. Another international client thats currently got heavy restrictions is Syria, do they have a banking system thats the same? Honest question, I know very little about Syria at all.

[Van Dammer]

It's quite simple really, NATO saw a small group of so-called rebels that they could manipulate and use to get rid of Libyan head of state Muammar Gaddafi. He didn't kneel to the western powers, and certainly wasn't afraid of them.

 

A man worthy of more respect than the likes of Blair, Bush, Obama, Cameron & Sarkozy, that's for sure.

 

Fuck me.

 

Now you may have zero respect for the names you mentioned, but to classify the zero respect Gaddafi deserves as being of greater value is just shite.