Shawn vs Bret

[fugaziuk]

To be fair to Shawn he was off his head on pills so prob can't remember half of the stuff he did.

[Mark Impact]

on the shawn dvd, they make it pretty clear that trips was pretty "forward" with the idea to screw bret.

There are a few references in Bret's book that he was asked to job to HHH on a few house shows in early 1997 (usually as a punishment for some wrong doing Shawn and HHH had dreamt up) and Bret refused because it was the wrong thing for business at that point, the finish being altered to a DQ. Maybe the HHH hostility towards Bret started there?

[Rob Lowe]

I was a bit underwhelmed with it to be honest. A lot of it was the two of them giving their views on certain incidents but not debating any of the points where they didn't agree...And it was really cool seeing the recent backstage footage of the two of them having a laugh together.

I figured it would be a bit of a letdown, I'll check it out though.

Unless it's in Shawn's book (I don't remember), I think this is the first time in a WWE product that they've covered Triple H's shit-stirring being a contributing factor to the screwjob.

I'm sure I've read Shawn Michaels saying it was Triple H who came out with the suggestion, which must have been either in his book or in a WWE magazine interview.

From what I remember from Shawns book, he was in a three way call with Vince and Triple H. After skirting around the issue, Vince playing dumb, Hunter stirring/making good points, Shawn suggested swerving him.He wrote that he and Hunter both felt that Vince wanted to do it anyway, but he couldnt outright ask him.

[Rob Lowe]

I liked the bit were Shawn was casting up the fact that Bret wanted to hand the belt back on Raw and leave nicely as a bad idea, and JR shot him down in seconds by saying something to the effect of, 'well you handed belts over on Raw several times, he (bret) only wanted to do it once, what's so wrong with that?'To which Shawn nervously squirms and gives a vague, non committal answer like he did for most of it.

Urgh!Then Shawn should have had the brains to say that there was a big difference. Bret was leaving for another company, that was mullering the WWF at the time. Bret leaving as the champ and then doing a tournament for the vacant tilte would have made it look like an absolute joke.Although the belts are worth fuck all these days, maybe they would have survived. It would have looked terrible though.Edit - Shawn handing in belts would have damaged the company to a lesser scale too. I dont want to start a big Montreal thread. Its a lazy Sunday!!!

[Loligan]

How exactly do you vacate a title but leave as champion?? Surely one negates the other?

[Rob Lowe]

How exactly do you vacate a title but leave as champion?? Surely one negates the other?

True, but by leaving as an undefeated champion, it makes the other wrestlers look beneath him. Thats nice if someone retires as the Champ like Edge or Trish.But if that person goes to a rival company, he looks good, the company and title he leaves behind look like an afterthought.

[JNLister]

The bit with Bret suggesting vacating the title is a little overplayed as it's often presented as him coming up with the idea out of nothing, which creates the impression he wouldn't drop the title to anyone under any circumstances.He was all for doing a non-finish at Survivor Series and dropping it at a four way the following month at the December PPV (when he would still have been under contract) but Vince suddenly decided that as word was out he was going to WCW, he had to lose it that weekend and then fuck off right away, which is when Bret came back with the vacating the belt idea.

[Loligan]

Exactly Lister. It became an issue of losing when he was told to and to whom he was told to. Problems being Hart had a contract that says he didn't have to do that. Also when you consider that he was well over on contracted dates by the time survivor series came round and he was not even obligated to appear, he was offering them a ton of help on his way out and they shafted him for it.

[The King Of Swing]

To be fair Bret didn't help matters when on his own DVD he moaned about the timing when it came to him dropping Titles.

[dopper]

There is a nicely edited together part on the Shawn Michaels documentary dvd that came out around the same time as his book where Shawn is describing where he, Vince, and HHH were in a room trying to come up with a way to meet Bret's demands but still end up with the title. Shawn said something like "We were sitting there in silence trying to think of an idea when Hunter suddenly said ..." and the dvd cut to Triple H recollecting it when he said: "FUCK HIM! If he's not willing to do business then we should do it without him". I liked they way they did that.

[air_raid]

In Shawn's book he describes it as being on a call with Vince with Hunter then chiming in with his "Fuck him!", and to that point Vince didn't even know Hunter had dialled into the call. Which makes it funnier.

 

Exactly Lister. It became an issue of losing when he was told to and to whom he was told to. Problems being Hart had a contract that says he didn't have to do that. Also when you consider that he was well over on contracted dates by the time survivor series came round and he was not even obligated to appear, he was offering them a ton of help on his way out and they shafted him for it.

 

There is a piece by Meltzer that details the full conversations about how, when and where Bret was prepared to drop the title which is always conveniently forgotten by those that take the "Vince was justified" position in regards to Montreal. He offered to drop the title to a few guys - including Shawn - in a few locations, he just didnt want to lose it in Montreal or the next night in Ottawa. Bret would have been happy dropping the belt in Pittsburgh, Detroit, Baltimore or at the Garden, and volunteered losing it to Michaels (but not in Canada), Undertaker, Steve Austin, Mankind, Ken Shamrock and even told Vince he would drop it to the Brawler if he asked him to.

[fugaziuk]

In Cornette's most recent shoot he said the problem wasn't with trusting Bret to come back and drop it in dec, the problem was with Bischoff promising to keep his mouth shut on Nitro about Bret now being a part of WCW. Cornette also added that when Bret offered to vacate the title on tv he told Vince he might aswell just piss in his mouth.

[Fox Piss]

But by S.S 97 a lot of people knew he was joining WCW. If you look into the crowd most of the signs mention WCW and Bret. J.R even says this is most likely the last time you will see these two face off.

 

On a side note The Hart V Michaels match at S.S 97 is my favorite match ever.

[King Pitcos]

Regardless of who was in the right (it was Vince and DX), the finish that actually happened was the best possible finish for the match. Bret went to WCW having not really been beaten for the title, and with a million times more controversy around him that should've made him a perfect enemy for corrupt boss Bischoff's NWO. WWF had loads of controversy, a new mega-heel in Vince McMahon and didn't have to do something stupid with the belt like give it to Shamrock for a month or hotshot Austin's first title win. If WCW played their cards right, Bret Hart vs NWO should've been enormous.

[air_raid]

GREAT point. In hindsight, Bret wanted the creative control clause that would effectively prevent the WWF from destroying his value to his new employers, and what actually happened didnt harm his credibility at all. Having him drop the title to Lombardi at the MSG house show would have, of course.