UFC 137: 'Penn vs Diaz' Thread

[Dead Mike]

The problem is Stu that once (if everything goes to plan for the UFC) the casual fans come over & the sport moves into the mainstream it'll come under all kinds of new scrutiny it's not been exposed to before. As is, the main criticisms of UFC/MMA has been the 'human cockfighting' brigade which can be easily argued against using medical facts

[David]

I'd still like to know how you'd cope with a situation that Swift pointed out above. All well and good wishing for something, but putting it into practice and maintaining it is another thing.

Okay, here you go;

 

A list is practically impossible to do imo. What do you do when the likes of Rick Story (7) loses to Charlie Brenneman, a late replacement (20). Does Brenneman jump 13 places in the rankings? Does Story drop 7 and Brenneman jump 6 as you can't really have Story above Brenneman any more as Brenneman has just proven that he is better. But then if you move Brenneman up a load of places that will mean he is most likely jumping above people who he recently lost too.

You move Brenneman up by four or five spots (making him a top 15 ranked fighter, which sounds about right), and drop Story down to just outside the top 10.

[Bus Surfer]

I'd still like to know how you'd cope with a situation that Swift pointed out above. All well and good wishing for something, but putting it into practice and maintaining it is another thing.

Okay, here you go;

 

A list is practically impossible to do imo. What do you do when the likes of Rick Story (7) loses to Charlie Brenneman, a late replacement (20). Does Brenneman jump 13 places in the rankings? Does Story drop 7 and Brenneman jump 6 as you can't really have Story above Brenneman any more as Brenneman has just proven that he is better. But then if you move Brenneman up a load of places that will mean he is most likely jumping above people who he recently lost too.

You move Brenneman up by four or five spots (making him a top 15 ranked fighter, which sounds about right), and drop Story down to just outside the top 10.

 

But that's just randomly done isn't it? It's all guess work, there's no set formula for how much someone falls or rises in the rankings delending on who they beat, which would cause so many problems.

[David]

But that's just randomly done isn't it? It's all guess work, there's no set formula for how much someone falls or rises in the rankings delending on who they beat, which would cause so many problems.

That may be so, but it would give the viewer an idea of who was where, wouldn't it? I'm sure that Joe Silva has some sort of ranking system in his head that he works with at present, so we could just use that.

 

It's not so much the ins & outs of how such a system works as much as actually having something that fans can refer to whenever they want. The only problem I can see is that doing this would stop the UFC being able to just scrap the current top contenders to suit their own agenda whenever they feel like it.

 

If such a system were in place three or four weeks ago, we would have seen St-Pierre at #1 in the welterweight rankings, with Carlos Condit sitting #2. Diaz would have come in at #3 by virtue of him being the Strikeforce champion, followed by the leper known as Jon Fitch at #4.

 

If the UFC were to behave like any other sporting franchise or league on the planet we'd be waiting with baited breath to see who comes out on top between St-Pierre and Condit, as the winner would no doubt face Nick Diaz. The winner of that fight would be facing Jon Fitch if he got past Johny Hendricks, and so on and so forth.

 

It's not fucking rocket science really, is it?

[Bus Surfer]

But that's just randomly done isn't it? It's all guess work, there's no set formula for how much someone falls or rises in the rankings delending on who they beat, which would cause so many problems.

That may be so, but it would give the viewer an idea of who was where, wouldn't it? I'm sure that Joe Silva has some sort of ranking system in his head that he works with at present, so we could just use that.

 

It's not so much the ins & outs of how such a system works as much as actually having something that fans can refer to whenever they want. The only problem I can see is that doing this would stop the UFC being able to just scrap the current top contenders to suit their own agenda whenever they feel like it.

 

If such a system were in place three or four weeks ago, we would have seen St-Pierre at #1 in the welterweight rankings, with Carlos Condit sitting #2. Diaz would have come in at #3 by virtue of him being the Strikeforce champion, followed by the leper known as Jon Fitch at #4.

 

If the UFC were to behave like any other sporting franchise or league on the planet we'd be waiting with baited breath to see who comes out on top between St-Pierre and Condit, as the winner would no doubt face Nick Diaz. The winner of that fight would be facing Jon Fitch if he got past Johny Hendricks, and so on and so forth.

 

It's not fucking rocket science really, is it?

 

You keep comparing it to sports like football where you actually play for points, that is not the case here.

 

In your example, if Condit loses to GSP, where does he go? 3rd place? So does someone have to beat him then to get a title shot and wouldn't be considered until they did? What about injuries? What about moving between weightclasses? The are so many flaws and variables in awarding of positions the whole roster would be up in arms and probably the fans too.

 

You make it sound so simple when it's not.

[Dead Mike]

So the alternative is to keep it the way it is, with everyone in the dark? You've got fighters like Mike Bisping thanking fans on Twitter for finding out how many fights away he is from a title shot & a supposedly legit 'sporting' organisation moving title shots around willy nilly? That shit's not gonna wash if/when they move into the mainstream.

[Bus Surfer]

So the alternative is to keep it the way it is, with everyone in the dark? You've got fighters like Mike Bisping thanking fans on Twitter for finding out how many fights away he is from a title shot & a supposedly legit 'sporting' organisation moving title shots around willy nilly? That shit's not gonna wash if/when they move into the mainstream.

 

Until there is a way of accurately and fairly setting it up, then I don't think they will. Why go from half arsed system to another?

[Dead Mike]

For a sense of transparency to the viewer used to seeing such things in every other sport they watch?

[Bus Surfer]

For a sense of transparency to the viewer used to seeing such things in every other sport they watch?

 

Any transparency would be out the window when it becomes apparent that there isn't much continuity to scoring and placement when injuries occur. It's totally different to a football league and because people will fight probably 2 or 3 times a year it's hard to compare it to other individual sports such as tennis where people compete regularly and how that relates to position in rankings.

 

Also, there is no 'number 1 contender' who is guaranteed a crack at the champ In other sports, I'm not including boxing as we know that's different with a host of titles and alliances.

[David]

You keep comparing it to sports like football where you actually play for points, that is not the case here.

I've not mentioned anything about points or football

 

In your example, if Condit loses to GSP, where does he go? 3rd place? So does someone have to beat him then to get a title shot and wouldn't be considered until they did? What about injuries? What about moving between weightclasses? The are so many flaws and variables in awarding of positions the whole roster would be up in arms and probably the fans too.

 

You make it sound so simple when it's not.

As I said, I'd use a hybrid of the Ring Magazine's boxing ratings and those used by the leading MMA websites out there. Taking your question there, let's assume that I'm the guy responsible for the UFC's new ratings;

 

Condit loses to St Pierre, meaning that St-Pierre retains the #1 spot. Condit drops down, which sees Diaz take the #2 spot and thus becomes the next #1 contender. That's the next title fight sorted, okay?

 

Fitch, for the sake of argument, has beaten Hendricks. He moves up to #3 now and would be next in line to face the winner of St-Pierre and Diaz (boo, hiss etc).

 

Sitting in the #4 spot is Jake Ellenberger after his win over Jake Shields. In the #5 spot is Rick Story, as his only loss in seven bouts is a decision against a late replacement.

 

Carlos Condid drops out of the top five after losing his title fight, and unless something really untoward happened in a title bout I'd likely drop a losing title challenger out of the top five altogether.

 

Outside the top 5 mentioned there we have Jake Shields, who lost to the champion then lost again, Johny Hendricks, who just dropped a loss to Fitch, and moving beyond that we don't have any clear-cut choices at this weight.

 

So, my rankings at this point would be;

 

#1 Georges St-Pierre

#2 Nick Diaz

#3 Jon Fitch

#4 Jake Ellenberger

#5 Rick Story

 

Beyond the top 5 you'd have a mix of other fighters either looking to break into the top 5 (Rory MacDonald, Brenneman etc), or looking to make their way back in (Koscheck, Condit etc).

 

Someone (not sure if it was you) mentioned the idea of fighters looking to fight conservatively in order to climb the rankings. Put simply, whilst winning conservatively would work eventually, an emphatic win would shoot you further up the rankings a lot quicker.

 

For example, if Jake Ellenberger is fighting before or on the same card as the St-Pierre vs Diaz bout, against someone like Koscheck for example, and he wins via KO or submission in a dominant display then there's the argument that he'd leapfrog Fitch at #3. You see what I mean? Especially if Fitch had come off a decision win over Hendricks.

 

There's plenty of scope for moving things around depending on how certain fights finish and who gets injured and so forth, but a rankings system is relatively easy to implement in my opinion.

 

It wouldn't change the way the UFC works at present all that much, but it would provide some sort of basic grounding for fans to look at be able to know the general landscape of any division.

[Bus Surfer]

You mention a league format which is commonly used by football, thats why i brought That up

 

I'm not in disagreement to Rankings, I just feel that if it were to be done, there are so many variables that would render it pointless, Fighters would probably kick up a fuss if they felt short changed and we'd probably be bitching on here about something being unfair has happened.

[David]

You mention a league format which is commonly used by football, thats why i brought That up

Are you talking about this post?

 

I know, but can you point out to me any sport which doesn't rely on a league table or rankings to determine who is worthy of being #1 and so forth?

[Bus Surfer]

Not specifically, again I brought it up because we're talking about rankings, which is essentially a league, which is commonly used in football.

[Egg Shen]

this is such a stupid argument, bottom line is a rankings system would not work. The UFC can have a rankings system and maybe display it on screen/website and give people are perspective of where people stand, but matchmaking cannot be determined from such a list, there's way too many obstacles in the way of making it work effectively. Boxing has a ranking system but it isn't there to determine who fights who, its basically there to give people an idea of where people stand, in the grand scheme of things it means nothing.

 

In PRIZE fighting contests are made differently to any other sport, it's fucking annoying me that people keep saying 'UFC is a real sport now', it's always been a real sport, but fighting doesn't work like other structured sports, you put together fights that either a) make sense as to where two guys stand in a supposed rankings system, b) what fans want to see/what makes the most money c) just let two guys fight that simply don't like each other, that's the beauty/appeal of it. Point a) doesn't have to be exclusive, exceptions can, and will be made all the time.

 

Fight promotion to a degree works like to pro-wrestling, always has, always will. The UFC has got to where it is today from doing things like this, do you seriously think Fox has bought into it to fuck with it? nope, Fox has picked it up because it f'n works...you match the UFC concept with Fox's marketing power and the UFC will move to another level. Of course Fox want to put their own spin on it with presentation and stuff, but i don't think there's any reason for Fox to mess with the way fights are made.

 

We should feel blessed that there isn't a rankings system cause we'd perhaps go without seeing so many of the fights we'd want to see. There's no doubt that Joe Silva works from some kind of unofficial rankings list, he rarely matches up one guy coming off a loss and one guy coming off a win either, he clearly has a system...but the beauty of it all is that if they get thrown a curveball, they can make whatever fucking fight they like, and that we should be thankful for. Take for instance the recent Cowboy Cerrone/Nam Phan situation, that fight makes no sense on paper but with one guy coming out in the press and talking shit, do i want to see it? fuck yes, i want to see it...and the great thing about it is, if it makes sense to the UFC's fans/schedule they'll fucking make it happen. In any other sport this does not happen, how can you not love that?

 

How many times has Dana White tweeted: "You wanted it, you've got..." fans are happy, moneys stumped down, ratings go up, UFC is great.

 

I have no problem with the UFC setting up some kind of 'ratings' guide, but to think that fights will be religiously made from that list is both wishful thinking and unrealistic, Inside MMA/MMA Live present a 'rankings' system on air every week for fans to see, isn't that good enough? and let's be honest does anyone really mull over the rankings that much? ive been watching MMA for 10 years and i couldn't care less about them.

 

Here's an example for you... The International Fight League, that worked didn't it?...oh and what TV station was the IFL assosciated with? oh yeh, Fox Sports. I know the IFL brought in a team concept (nice idea, lousy in practice), but beyond that the whole point was that there was a league in place in that people could follow, it didn't work because nobody gave a fuck. If you aint giving the fans the fights they want to see, they aint going to tune in, simple.

 

If you need to watch a sport where you definitively know where everyone stands go and watch Bowls.

[Egg Shen]

You mention a league format which is commonly used by football, thats why i brought That up

 

I'm not in disagreement to Rankings, I just feel that if it were to be done, there are so many variables that would render it pointless, Fighters would probably kick up a fuss if they felt short changed and we'd probably be bitching on here about something being unfair has happened.

 

exactly...there's too many things that can go wrong, don't work about the idea.