Paid Members Dead Mike Posted November 2, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 2, 2011 No, if/when the UFC get into the mainstream & want to be accepted as a prime-time sport they'll come under much more scrutiny than they've had thus far. They'll be competing with the major US sports for TV/Advertising/Endorsement dollars as oppposed to now, where they're competing with wrestling & to an extent boxing. Their detractors wont be the 'human cockfighting' brigade as they'll be passed all that nonsense, it'll be people questioning every other aspect of the organisation, their legitimacy, dodgy contract dealings, whether the fighters are role models, their private lives....exactly the same scrutiny that NBA, NFL, NHL teams & stars get over there. Â Neither myself or David have suggested that any visible rankings system will be flawless or even work effectively, just that in the future they'll need one exactly like Boxing does. MMA, no matter how quickly it's growing or how it's increased in popularity is still considered a fringe sport. If the UFC want to be accepted into the mainstream like Boxing, Basketball, NFL etc then they'll have to adapt to what the accepted standard is for US sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Why? Why would it need to slot into the accepted way of doing things for nfl and basketball when it's a completely different beast? They've grown massively as a result of doing things the way they have and they're now about to get massively more exposure. They have a track record of expanding quickly the way they've done things, why would the potential new fans be any different? And why would it not attract investment dollars? Cos of questions about the ranking system? Who gives a fuck? The shady contract dealings, steroids, all that good stuff - that all happens in nfl and baseball as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted November 2, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 2, 2011 I didn't say it wouldn't attract investment dollars, that they'll be competing against the NFL, NBA, NHL etc for TV time, ad money, endorsements...they're not in that league currently but that's where this Fox deal could (hopefully) take them. They've got where they are by booking in this manner & giving people the fights they want & the fights that'll earn them PPV buys, when all eyes are on them they wont be afforded that luxury. You say it's a 'different beast' but it's not, not at all....the UFC's growth is someone elses loss & when that loss gets really big people will start looking to knock the UFC, calling 'work' & saying they're manufacturing fights will be one of the ways they'll be attacked, along with steroids, scandals et al. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 But there's a trade off there, they could look to have a more exciting product, or look to implement a ranking system which would probably be (as you rightly point out) inneffective. Or they can chase ratings and buy rates and compete with nfl and all the rest by putting out the product the public most want to see. The later seems much more likely to succeed than the former, it would seem. And that's before you even factor in the fact they're not just competing against "legit" sports, and if they can pick up 2 wwe fans whove grown out of cena and co for every 1 nfl fan who doesn't come over because the lack of a ratings system means he doesn't believe in it (which I don't believe will happen on a large scale personally, even the people like david who complain about it still watch it religously, but let's say for the sack of argument they do) then they're still on a winner. And that's before you even factor in the major difference in their business models, unless they're scrapping the ppv format entirely in the move to fox their exposure on there will exist not just to get extra revenue from fox, but more importanly to use it as advertisment to get people to buy their ppv's. Essentially, they're a completely different to the nfl and co, and there's no reason to believe they'll get more benefit from changing their game plan to fit in more than they would from keeping it the same and continuing to expand in the same way they have been up to this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Kiffy, no one is saying that any ranking system will be a bible that the UFC must adhere to when booking fights, but they'll have to bring in something that casual fans can look at to see who's ranked where. How else will they get to know who's who? Â When they hear the name Anderson Silva, for example, they can check the rankings to see who the top three or four challengers are, and so forth. Likewise, when they sit down to watch a fightcard and it features Chris Leben and Mark Munoz (two relatively unknown fighters in the mainstream) they can look at the rankings and say "oh, Leben is a top 10 fighter". Â As I said, Joe Silva undoubtedly has a sort of ranking system in his head. He must know who he considers to be the top three or four in each division and so forth, so it wouldn't be difficult to put something out there. Â It would work very similar to boxing, which is a sport where you can see guys ranked 3rd or 4th getting titleshots and so on. As someone said, that's the nature of the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted November 2, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 2, 2011 Or they can chase ratings and buy rates and compete with nfl and all the rest by putting out the product the public most want to see  Absolutely, but it depends if you're classing yourself as a sport, that's reported on major network sports shows alongside boxing, NFL, NBA etc or as an entertainment product like WWE. The Fox deal suggests the former, as that's where the BIG money is. Real sports can't just give the match-ups people want to see, that's not how it works is it? If, say I'm any of the other big sporting organisations & I notice that my market share is being impacted by a new sport that's now getting increased mainstream attention, do you honestly think I'm going to shrug it off or will I try & discredit it & point out as many flaws as I can? Do you think they'll be without their critics? How would you explain the Condit situation to a new viewer? 'He was the number one contender but we reckon more people will want to watch this other fight instead?' That shit's not gonna wash. It's fine for them to do now as they're not under that level of scrutiny but if they're gonna try & rub shoulders with the big boys of US sports they will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Why would it not wash? Has it turned you off? Same way dana did it, GSP desperately wanted it, the fans desperately want it, I made it happen. Sure they'll have their critics, but the products good enough to shake em off. And if you don't do things like that, the product gets weaker, why weaken your product to stop the head of the nfl pointing out flaws? If you do that he has far more affect than he does by pointing it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Seriously Kiffy, you can't see the sense in what Mike's saying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Of course I can understand what he's saying, I'm pointing out the flaws I see in the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted November 2, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 2, 2011 Why would it not wash? Has it turned you off? I've been watching MMA for years, I've been to plenty of shitty UK shows & spent hundreds on UFC tickets, I'm not a new casual fan who they're trying to appeal to with the Fox deal. Sure they'll have their critics, but the products good enough to shake em off. The products excellent but if it turns out the champion only got the shot at being champ because he was a fan favourite & not the best challenger how do you explain that? How do argue in favour of any sporting organisation manipulating competition so it's top earners are kept in the spotlight? Nobody's is claiming that the UFC will have to change the product. Just make a couple of presentation tweaks to ensure acceptance from the mainstream...what part of this are you struggling with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiffy Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 The part where they have to do that, essentially. I realise it wouldn't work in the nfl, but I don't think it therefore follows that they'd have to stop doing it in ufc. I don't think it should attempt to follow the lead set by the NFL, it's a completely different beast and it's grown hugely by doing things like this. I don't believe the positives of changing that practice would outweigh the negatives. It needs to be kept occassional, like it currently is, but I don't think getting rid of it completely will bring the perceived benefits you think it will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted November 3, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 3, 2011 I see what your getting at but a rankings system in the UFC or in any combat sport is irrelevant. Its a nice little table to show where certain guys stand and i would not at all be surprised if the UFC presented something like that on a broadcast, but all it will ever be is a rough guide as to where fighters stand. Fight promotion has never and will never be run according to a rankings system... Â If anything boxing rankings make things more complicated for people to follow, them things are minipulated to death. If anything the only reason they exist is to allow promoters an excuse to justify why certain fights take place. Â And again! MMA has rankings, it always has had rankings! David mentioned The Ring Magazine rankings? What's the difference between The Ring's rankings in boxing and Sherdog's MMA rankings? They are there for everyone to see, always have been. Â I have no doubt that we'll see the introduction of analysis with figures and shit, Strikeforce do it with the compustrike numbers and stuff now and it clearly is something traditional sports fans expect, but i just get the impression from reading your posts that you believe the UFC needs to completely overhaul everything that got them to the dance, i dont think it will be the case. Â As for Dana, i expect they might tell him to tone down the language but dont you ever think that Fox might want him to stay the way he is? Dana is front and center, he answers anything people ask him and he works incredibly hard so that we benefit. Dana's a fucking fight promoter not a good will ambassador. Â Im done with this argument anyways, theres two distinct sides here who clearly think they know best as to how this thing should be. Â We'll just have to agree to disagree. I guess all will be answered over the course of the next couple of years. Â Exciting times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted November 3, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 3, 2011 They've got where they are by booking in this manner & giving people the fights they want & the fights that'll earn them PPV buys, when all eyes are on them they wont be afforded that luxury. Yes they will, its how fight promotion works. Look at boxing! You will get people questioning decisions but if on fight night seats are full and eyes are on the tv screen its all good. Â Look at the recent Cleverly-Bellew fight, that fight was made from the fact that fight fans wanted it. Bellew wasn't ranked high enough that he really deserved a world title shot but the way promotion works means they could set it up and the fight ended up being a massive success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted November 3, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted November 3, 2011 Name me one instance in boxing when a guy has been promised a title shot/given no1 contender status only to have it taken away for no other reason that PPV buys/fan pressure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
METAL ON METAL Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Name me one instance in boxing when a guy has been promised a title shot/given no1 contender status only to have it taken away for no other reason that PPV buys/fan pressure? Â Well, a fairly recent example. John Ruiz was meant to fight Nikolai Valuev, but he 'stepped aside' so Haye could instead fight Valuev. Â Theres your one instance, I'm sure the actual long-time boxing fans in TaylorSlade, Ebb & Wandshogun will be able to give you countless other ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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