RIOT!

[Chris B]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but your conclusion?

 

The authorities, both governmental and law enforcement, should be looking at ways of helping areas and young people, and treating people with respect rather than suspicion. Then, perhaps, they would gain trust, the improvement of the areas would change the mindset of people who would be less inclined to react this way. As it is, hatred towards the police and the government is at a high we have not seen for years, and the consequence is rioting and vandalism, which I support until the authorities change the way they operate.

 

Fuck right off. I live in Wood Green. I've spoken to people who are worried they're going to lose everything because they run small businesses and their insurance doesn't cover that kind of vandalism.

 

People in Tottenham have lost their homes. You're talking about an area that does have poverty. You're talking about, well, people in similar positions to the rioters and looters. You think most of them have insurance? What about those that don't? Not everybody does, and not everyone is going to be covered by this.

 

It's not just chain stores taking a hit. It's family businesses and family homes. It's middle class bullshit to assume everything will be okay because of insurance. For some people, even if it shouldn't be, insurance is a luxury they can't afford.

[spurs 4 life]

It's so frustrating when some of you completely misrepresent what I'm saying, probably influenced by the right-leaning, paranoia inducing, scare-mongering newspapers that you read.

 

All of this 'offer them an IT course and a cuddle' or 'misunderstood youth (HAHA)' bullshit, it's just complete mockery and just underlines how unfounded some of your arguments are and that fact they can only be backed up by misquoting and mocking others.

 

I have never said that any of these problems are easy. The point I have been trying to make all along is that these social situations are not there 'just because they are' or just because 'these people are scum'. There are underlying wider social reasons for it. THAT is the reason that these situations happen and that is what needs to be more understood to prevent them happening again.

 

You totally took what i said out of context and insulted me with it so quit the i'm so misunderstood shit.

 

Your sitting there 100's of miles away making excuses for people even though you have never been to the area, have no idea what life is like there and more disturbingly haven't once came up with anything productive to help the victims here. I'm not political, i don't support the right or left, i'll judge each situation as i see it. I have first hand experience of this, i have told you how i lived there, worked there and got out and yet you have dismissed every part of that just for your own agenda.

 

You have nothing to back up your argument other than an uneducated opinion and yet you patronise everyone who disagrees with you. As i said before, just another person on the internet talking shit.

[Vito]

This works two ways though, as people will have to be employed in the construction trade and various others to recover these buildings. As long as they have insurance, it shouldn't be a problem. In fact, they'll get nice shiny buildings out of it to make up for the inconvenience, it is the people paying the extra premiums who will suffer.

I'm not talking about building owners, I'm referring to the people who work in them on a daily basis. Take Carpet Right for example, the building owners and Carpet Right themselves will claim off of their respective insurances (assuming Carpet Right don't own the building) and will probably rebuild, but what about the staff who work there on a daily basis? How many people are now out of a job because Carpet Right burned to the ground? I don't know exactly how big the place was but let's take a wild guess and say that it's probably at least thirty people, the core management structure will probably relocate to other branches, but where does that lead the rest of the staff? And that's just Carpet Right, what about the other business that were destroyed? As someone earlier in the thread rightly pointed out a lot of these areas are impoverished and known for high levels of crime, what happens if all of these businesses (read: employers) decide that they don't need a presence in said areas?

 

These riots have achieved absolutely nothing positive, all they've succeeded in doing is making already crappy areas even worse. Organising a protest or even rioting to achieve an intended goal is one thing, but this served no purpose, it was nothing more than absolute carnage for shits and giggles.

 

Sorry for all of the question marks in the above post. I'm trying to bring to peoples attention the one thing which tends to be forgotten when these things happen; the terrible price that the average person always ends up paying.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Vito

[spurs 4 life]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but your conclusion?

 

 

 

Fuck right off. I live in Wood Green. I've spoken to people who are worried they're going to lose everything because they run small businesses and their insurance doesn't cover that kind of vandalism.

 

People in Tottenham have lost their homes. You're talking about an area that does have poverty. You're talking about, well, people in similar positions to the rioters and looters. You think most of them have insurance? What about those that don't? Not everybody does, and not everyone is going to be covered by this.

 

It's not just chain stores taking a hit. It's family businesses and family homes. It's middle class bullshit to assume everything will be okay because of insurance. For some people, even if it shouldn't be, insurance is a luxury they can't afford.

 

This is what i'm annoyed about. If you want a deep argument about these man made ghetto's ok but whats being forgotten here in the point scoring is that people, and there are thousands of them who didn't want to venture out yesterday and didn't want to talk to the news have lost so much even if it's just there local supermarket. These are people who struggle to make ends meet and have to live in areas where it isn't safe to walk the streets and by and large aren't fun places to live.

 

If Bobbins, Whiskey and even you want to talk about improving it longterm then i'll take your points on board and listen but short to medium term the streets of Tottenham need to be cleaned up and these gangs of kids that i know from experience don't respect anything or anyone that isn't money need to be taught that their are consequences for their actions.

[Loki]

These riots were predicted a couple of years ago for this summer in London...

 

And even more recently, ahem:

 

...Ultimately, all this is fuelled by the problems of long-term unemployment and low education standards amongst a very specific segment of what used to be called the "working class". And it's only going to get worse as local services are withdrawn due to the sever public spending cuts.

 

For example, knife crime is going to go through the roof this summer, particularly amongst inner-city ethnic communities as the youth services that would normally work at keeping bored teenagers off the streets have all been cut to pieces. That's in turn going generate a backlash from EDL types.

 

I'm still amazed, as Chris B is, by how some posters here can take sympathy with the situation in the inner cities and somehow conclude with supporting rioters. Have a word.

[Ross]

You totally took what i said out of context and insulted me with it so quit the i'm so misunderstood shit.

 

Your sitting there 100's of miles away making excuses for people even though you have never been to the area, have no idea what life is like there and more disturbingly haven't once came up with anything productive to help the victims here. I'm not political, i don't support the right or left, i'll judge each situation as i see it. I have first hand experience of this, i have told you how i lived there, worked there and got out and yet you have dismissed every part of that just for your own agenda.

 

You have nothing to back up your argument other than an uneducated opinion and yet you patronise everyone who disagrees with you. As i said before, just another person on the internet talking shit.

 

I'M NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR PEOPLE. Feel like I'm banging my head off a fucking brick wall. I don't have an agenda apart from wanting to see more thought-out, rational approaches to these problems which I have, despite you seemingly missing, talked about earlier. As far as in the short-term, all you can do is appeal for calm from local community leaders and hope that the police are transparent as far as the shooting goes. And again, as far as on the internet talking shit, use that line all you want, but I'd say all of this to your face. And if you want to discuss if any further I'll be happy to do so over the phone as well.

[Magnum]

For me, I think it's time the police stood up and took responsibility. They've been fucking people for far too long, without ever dealing with the problems that people actually want them to tackle. They're corrupt, watered down since the introduction of 'special support officers' and the like, tainted by their pedantry when it comes to dealing with road offences which is seen as merely a money making venture. Then there's the more serious stuff, the people they kill by mistake, their tight knit group complex where if someone like Raul Moat targets one of them he is earmarked for particularly bad treatment.

 

Not wanting to derail the thread, but what 'particularly bad treatment' did Raoul Moat get? He shot three innocent people and made very clear his intentions to go on targeting police officers - if they sent armed officers after him with instructions to treat him like he was extremely dangerous and volatile, then they were doing their job right. His complaints about police harassment were the ramblings of a drugged-up, paranoid psychopath that deserve no more credence than Anders Breivik's political manifesto, and the fact that a load of meathead wannabe cage fighters and benefit scroungers have anointed him their own Che Guevara doesn't change that.

 

And back on thread, these cunts need to be put down hard if they carry on with this shit. I'm sure they'll be weeping for the dead man and their social disenfranchisement when they're selling all their loot so they can buy a shiny new fucking necklace to impress their mates with.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Magnum

[spurs 4 life]

I'M NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR PEOPLE. Feel like I'm banging my head off a fucking brick wall. I don't have an agenda apart from wanting to see more thought-out, rational approaches to these problems which I have, despite you seemingly missing, talked about earlier. As far as in the short-term, all you can do is appeal for calm from local community leaders and hope that the police are transparent as far as the shooting goes. And again, as far as on the internet talking shit, use that line all you want, but I'd say all of this to your face. And if you want to discuss if any further I'll be happy to do so over the phone as well.

 

No point talking to me on the phone, not my community anymore. If your as caring as you make out i'm sure there are plenty of youth worker vacancies in Tottenham. Don't bring anything of value though.

 

You have exactly made excuses for them

 

Firstly, I am not just referring to only this post by him but his many other EDL-defending posts. I utterly detest the EDL - a bunch of hateful, intolerant people. Secondly, there is yet to be an independent investigation into the shooting so you don't know exactly what happened. Thirdly, the shooting may have just been the straw that broke the camels back. Youths still complain of being stopped by the police for no reason and it has been shown time and time again that police use their stop and search powers disproportionately.

 

That's what usually happens in riots. I'm not saying it's right but this is what people do when they're angry and caught up in a riot situation.

 

Stopping and searching every black/asian kid (which if we're honest, is who are disproportinately stopped by the police) you see does not help the gun/knife problem. It just causes racial tensions and general mistrust between the community and the police. How many times have you been searched for weapons Mickey?

 

I think Magnum's description of people as scum pretty much sums up a wider problem as well. If you see certain groups of people as scum and treat them as such - why do you expect then expect them to behave in a manner that matches your values? It's just a new form of discrimination, much like racism and sexism. This time its the haves looking down on the have nots. Shameful really.

 

All sound like excuses to me and thats just the first 2 pages. Not sure where your posts are defending all the law abiding people who have had their homes, business etc burnt down/looted who grew up with the same disadvantages.

[Vito]

As far as in the short-term, all you can do is appeal for calm from local community leaders and hope that the police are transparent as far as the shooting goes.

This is an interesting term that I'd like to explore for a moment. I'm not trying to pick a fight here but isn't "local community leaders" a bit of an archaic term in 2011? The only communities which seem to have leaders whose opinions carry any real weight seem to be in religious communities. My own town has a mayor and elected council representatives but I don't think any of them could calm the rage of an angry mob.

[King Pitcos]

All sound like excuses to me and thats just the first 2 pages. Not sure where your posts are defending all the law abiding people who have had their homes, business etc burnt down/looted who grew up with the same disadvantages.

Well he did just post applauding the fella who said he's backing the looters, so I think we know where his sympathy lies in the situation now.

[Loki]

I'M NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR PEOPLE. Feel like I'm banging my head off a fucking brick wall. I don't have an agenda apart from wanting to see more thought-out, rational approaches to these problems which I have, despite you seemingly missing, talked about earlier. As far as in the short-term, all you can do is appeal for calm from local community leaders and hope that the police are transparent as far as the shooting goes. And again, as far as on the internet talking shit, use that line all you want, but I'd say all of this to your face. And if you want to discuss if any further I'll be happy to do so over the phone as well.

 

You stood and applauded a post which supported the rioters in their rioting.

 

Editing it now, hours later, doesn't help you know.

 

Vito, you're right. I don't know what community leaders could help for non-religious communities. Perhaps grime MCs, footballers, those sorts? They're the guys that the rioters look up too. I'd like to see Prof Green making an appeal for calm on the BBC.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Loki

[Jas]

From the outside, it all looks quite exciting.

 

For me, I think it's time the police stood up and took responsibility. They've been fucking people for far too long, without ever dealing with the problems that people actually want them to tackle. They're corrupt, watered down since the introduction of 'special support officers' and the like, tainted by their pedantry when it comes to dealing with road offences which is seen as merely a money making venture. Then there's the more serious stuff, the people they kill by mistake, their tight knit group complex where if someone like Raul Moat targets one of them he is earmarked for particularly bad treatment.

 

Take the case of the student who threw the fire extinguisher from the roof at the police. I'm not excusing his actions in any way, but how is it that within 2-3 weeks he had been sent down for three years. Normal cases like this don't get solved anywhere near as quickly, you often wait months, yet as soon as the aggrieved party is police officers it's done and dusted in double quick time. The same goes for the son of David Gilmour; yes, he vandalised a memorial, but the crime didn't really fit the heavy sentence, and in my view he only got such a heavy sentence because the police took the student riots so personally.

 

Really, it all comes down to initial causality. If the police hadn't acquired a reputation for incompetence, racism and brutality, this one shooting incident wouldn't have acted as the final straw to a community. There are also a number of other more transient factors, such as the lack of money and help given to many areas to improve them and change the mindset of the young. The lies the government told about tuition fees that incited the riots earlier this year acted as a spur to people - had the government been honest, the modern precedent for rioting and vandalism would not have been set.

 

The authorities, both governmental and law enforcement, should be looking at ways of helping areas and young people, and treating people with respect rather than suspicion. Then, perhaps, they would gain trust, the improvement of the areas would change the mindset of people who would be less inclined to react this way. As it is, hatred towards the police and the government is at a high we have not seen for years, and the consequence is rioting and vandalism, which I support until the authorities change the way they operate.

 

I will respond to certain bits of your post below...

 

They've been fucking people for far too long, without ever dealing with the problems that people actually want them to tackle

Do you actually understand how difficult it is to police areas when you

[spurs 4 life]

You stood and applauded a post which supported the rioters in their rioting.

 

Editing it now, hours later, doesn't help you know.

 

Vito, you're right. I don't know what community leaders could help for non-religious communities. Perhaps grime MCs, footballers, those sorts? They're the guys that the rioters look up too. I'd like to see Prof Green making an appeal for calm on the BBC.

 

Music is most certainly the way here. Every troublesome/lost kid i've met in the area wanted to be a musician of some sort, it was often their only dream.

 

Underground grime and rap artists are the only ones who could possibly get them to listen and even then some of them are so far gone i don't think that would help.

[Ross]

You stood and applauded a post which supported the rioters in their rioting.

 

Editing it now, hours later, doesn't help you know.

 

Vito, you're right. I don't know what community leaders could help for non-religious communities. Perhaps grime MCs, footballers, those sorts? They're the guys that the rioters look up too. I'd like to see Prof Green making an appeal for calm on the BBC.

 

Hours later? What a ridiculous exaggeration. It was minutes later after I re-read the post.

[Loki]

Hours later? What a ridiculous exaggeration. It was minutes later after I re-read the post.

 

Ok, half an hour. The time makes no difference to the blatant nature of the reverse ferrett.