Lawful Rebellion - Birkenhead

[JNLister]

In the interests of fairness, I should probably summarise the fundamentals of what Duane is arguing here.

 

These "freemen" work on the basis that they are governed by Magna Carta, a contract between the King and the people. They believe that any laws passed by Parliament since -- including repealing most of Magna Carta -- have no force because Magna Carta didn't authorise them to make these laws.

 

The freemen also believe that as no monarch has ever formally withdrawn their involvement in the contract, it still applies today. Yes, you reading this are in a contract with Queen Elizabeth II because some people got King John to sign a piece of paper 900 years ago. (Magna Carta does specifically say freeman are subject to the "law of the land", but today's freeman believe -- in contrast to everyone else's interpretation -- that this doesn't include statute law, ie stuff passed by parliament.)

 

Well, that's what the freemen believe when they get a speeding fine.

 

When it comes to the EU, the argument changes such that the people have a contract with the monarch that is renewed when a new monarch takes power. The Queen renews by reading an oath and we renew by, well, I'm not sure. By not doing a citizen's arrest on the Archbishop of Canterbury during the ceremony or something. Anyhow, because the oath the monarch takes includes promising to protect UK sovereignty, the freemen believe that Elizabeth II has breached the contract because she gave royal assent to the bills that signed the UK up to the political element of the EU.

 

The freemen then believe that because of this, you can send the Queen a note saying she's breached the agreement and thus the whole deal is off. That therefore means that they are only governed by common law and not stuff passed by parliament.

 

You may have noticed this changed argument results in the same outcome, and all that's achieved by this argument is to have a go at the EU. How cynical of you.

 

So either way, the freemen argue that they are only covered by common law. Common law means law that is established through precedence, ie court decisions, rather than acts of parliament and government regulations.

 

The problem here is that every time a law passed by parliament is upheld in a court case (eg someone is convicted), it inherently becomes part of common law.

 

The freemen don't really have an answer for this. The best they can come up with is that if a court is hearing a case based on an act of parliament, the court doesn't have any authority. It's about here that the stuff about names in capital letters gets thrown out.

 

By this point, the freemen's argument comes down to this: an agreement between the King and some people in the 13th century holds up today, all laws passed since then don't count -- and neither does the authority of courts to uphold them -- unless we individually consent to them, we are still governed by the 13th century agreement (except if we shout about the EU and opt out), and the only laws we are governed by are ones that have never been written down and if you are had up for breaking a law, it only counts if the court can prove its a law without referring to legislation or to any past cases that themselves referred to legislation.

 

In other words, a freeman doesn't have to pay a speeding fine or his council tax because.... well... Just because.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

Cheers for that, I'd been trying to get my head around what the hell they were trying to say.

[Surf Digby]

So all that shit Patrick McGoohan got into was down to parking fines?

[Dynamite Duane]

What's with ALL the NEWSPAPER style capitals?

The key words.

[Dynamite Duane]

When the clerk in the court gets me to confirm the ALL CAPITALS name that the government used to create a legal fiction that I represent, do they have to SHOUT LOUDLY so that I know it's in capitals?

no.

 

Thanks for posting your did explaining full understanding of Common Law & Freeman On The Land, you have a good understanding of it by that post.

 

You may have noticed this changed argument results in the same outcome, and all that's achieved by this argument is to have a go at the EU. How cynical of you.

 

It's more than having a go at the EU though, it's taking a stand against the parliamentarians, judiciary and those who abuse those power and seek to control the masses.

[neil]

My birth certificate has my name in handwritten sentence case. Do I not exist?

I am a JNLister birther.

[bobbins]

Kudos to Duane for coming back to explain his points of view and expand on the discussion, thus coaxing that great post out of John.

 

I actually thought the Birkenhead thing was pretty great. Even though it's foundations were in some horrible arsehole not wanting to pay his council tax, and all that wrongheaded magna carta stuff. It fucked some shit up, got people thinking about the legality and the worth of the system that we all live under, sought to question rather than blindly accept, and confused the fuck out of a few bizzies. Be a shame if that lead to more blind acceptance of some other nonsense.

[Dan Williams]

Right so what I'm getting from all this here is basically if I killed someone and got arrested as long as when they ask are you MR DAN WILLIAMS all I have to do is say no and I'm home and dry right?

[Blueknowzit]

that the problem with idiots like this, BCG guy he'lll lead a handful of useful idiots into following his example and all that they will succeed in doing is that they will be made bankrupt or in the case of the BNP representative outside the court end up attracting more of the states attention than they can handle.

 

your not telling me that if this nobhead was assaulted or his house was burning down he wouldn't call the emergency services? no he'd be happy to drop the freeman bulshit then wouldn't he

 

he's not some robin hood style anti hero sticking it to the man, he's a fuckin time waster, any one who thinks otherwise is a moron

[Loki]

it's taking a stand against the parliamentarians, judiciary and those who abuse those power and seek to control the masses.

 

Are you saying therefore that ALL MPs, judges and magistrates are in some sort of giant collusion to deny you some fundamental rights or power?

 

Even giving that that smacks of the usual paranoia... if all these people suddenly stopped doing their jobs, who's going to run the country, make the laws, and preside over the courts? You? Did you even bother to go and vote in the recent referendum?

 

Every year or two we have elections in this country, local or general, and that is the in-built opportunity for people to effect actual change to the system, and yet about 40% don't even bother to vote, and those who do tend to vote for the usual hegemony - Labour or Tories. People, basically, like to complain a lot, but aren't much fussed about actually doing anything about it. They'd rather partake in silly and ultimately pointless displays of ignorance like this Birkenhead thing.

[JNLister]

Right so what I'm getting from all this here is basically if I killed someone and got arrested as long as when they ask are you MR DAN WILLIAMS all I have to do is say no and I'm home and dry right?

 

So they believe. "Are you DAN WILLIAMS" is apparently legal shorthand for "Do you agree that you are the embodiment of the legal fiction of DAN WILLIAMS created and controlled by the government upon the issue of your birth certificate, under Maritime Law as established by the Great Fire of London, and that by responding to this question you enter into a contract with the current Queen that derives from Magna Carta but build upon that by agreeing to recognizing the power of the UK Parliament to pass legislation that will be signed by said Queen even if it contravenes the oath she swore upon her Coronation, and that as a consequence of this agreement you consent to be punished for breaching said legislation."

[PowerButchi]

What if your name is in lower case on your birth certificate due to a clerical error or something, does that mean you don't exist? Or are you a SUPERFREEMAN? Or if your surname is Freeman? Are you FREEMAN THE FREEMAN?

[JNLister]

You are then More Than FREEMAN. For legal reasons you can only appear on TV and not radio.

[bobbins]

Every year or two we have elections in this country, local or general, and that is the in-built opportunity for people to effect actual change to the system, and yet about 40% don't even bother to vote, and those who do tend to vote for the usual hegemony - Labour or Tories. People, basically, like to complain a lot, but aren't much fussed about actually doing anything about it. They'd rather partake in silly and ultimately pointless displays of ignorance like this Birkenhead thing.

It's a bit rich complaining about the Tory-Labour hegemony when you're a Liberal Democrat. Our political system is fucked to the point of leaving the majority of the country completely disenfranchised. The Birkenhead thing may have been a display of ignorance, but getting a load of people together and storming a courthouse is not necessarily less likely to effect actual change to the system than voting in local or general elections. Particularly because of the hegemony that you mentioned. Is storming a courthouse and spreading the word about it really less effective political action than voting for a fringe party? Certainly in Birkenhead, there is absolutely zero chance of effecting political change through the ballot box. One of the safest Labour seats in the country, held by a right-wing arsehole for the last 32 years.

[ozzfan]

What if your name is in lower case on your birth certificate due to a clerical error or something, does that mean you don't exist? Or are you a SUPERFREEMAN? Or if your surname is Freeman? Are you FREEMAN THE FREEMAN?

 

What if your name is Andrew Number? If the police come to your door and ask "Are you A. NUMBER?", can you answer "I am not A. NUMBER! I am a FREEMAN!"?