Next number 1 babyface

[CleetusVanDamme]

UFC isn't wrestling. Drawing ppv buys in another sport in 2008 has nothing to do with how big a star you were in WWE in 2002-2004.

 

 

Especially seen as "over half" of 850,000 buys is far, far more buys than what 95% of WWE ppv's he headlined drew

[PowerButchi]

I think pretty much any main event wwe wrestler worth a shit would be a draw in UFC to be honest, but Lesnar never struck me as a megastar and super draw in WWE. Saying him being a megadraw and superstar in UFC doesn't mean he was one in WWE.

[CleetusVanDamme]

Me and my mates found the Jeremy Horn fight to be much more memorable anyway.

 

Brock who?.

[air_raid]

To be fair, I think he petered out a bit after losing to Big Show and being in three ways with him and Angle.

 

I thought out loud in another thread that Big Show beating Brock was harmful to Lesnar's aura, but turns out I was wrong. That's two of us wrong so far.

 

The endless cycle of Angle v Lesnar / Lesnar v Show sure got monotonous alright. I often wonder how good SmackDown could have been in the spring/summer of 2004 if Lesnar hadn't left, Angle hadn't been hurt and they'd have been bold enough to ride Cena's face reactions to main events rather than have him waste a year holding the United States title fifteen times. A main event scene of Angle, Lesnar, Eddy and Cena could have been interesting.

 

JBL at a push, although while I was big fan of the character, I'd have much preferred him as an upper-midcard heel that a babyface had to go through to get to the title shots, rather than champion.

[PepperPlunge]

The actual loss to Big Show didn't strike me at the time as losing any aura but the consequent matches with Angle and Show bored me.

[jimufctna24]

UFC isn't wrestling. Drawing ppv buys in another sport in 2008 has nothing to do with how big a star you were in WWE in 2002-2004.

Especially seen as "over half" of 850,000 buys is far, far more buys than what 95% of WWE ppv's he headlined drew

 

Assuming you are talking about what I wrote

 

I am not arguing that Brock was a mega draw in WWE and that is why he drew in MMA, he wasn’t although I believe he had the potential to be. Not to the level of Austin or Rock of course.

 

Brock added those buys to the UFC PPV by his name value in WWE. Those 400k or so who ordered that first Brock fight remembered him from WWE and remembered he was a big star for the company in a time 2002-2003 where a lot of fans enjoyed the product more than the PG era, regardless of what time period drew more.

 

No it isn’t proof he is some sort of mega draw in Pro Wrestling, I would never argue that but his drawing power in the UFC is down to his Pro Wrestling past. It is kind of the same as Ken Shamrock, to a lesser extent he drew some Pro Wrestling fans who remembered him from the attitude era as quite a big star. Was he a massive draw in wrestling? No of course not but a lot of Pro Wrestling fans were converted to MMA because of him.

 

The UFC wanted WWE audience and thanks to Shamrock and then Brock they got a sizable chunk of it.

[mdh85]

The UFC wanted WWE audience and thanks to Shamrock and then Brock they got a sizable chunk of it.

 

There's a lot of truth in that. I for one only had a passing interest in the UFC before they signed Brock - I'd watched and enjoyed the Shamrock/Ortiz season of Ultimate Fighter but otherwise I wasn't fussed. Since Lesnar's first fight I've been getting more and more into it, and I'd certainly never miss a card with him on.

 

Theoretically, any WWE headliner could have garnered the same interest and extra buys - but in the real world, any other WWE headliner would have been destroyed in their first fight. Brock draws buys from WWE fans who want to see him dominate, and hardcore UFC fans who want to see him shown up and exposed as a sham.

 

All of which proves Brock Lesnar is a massive star and a money draw for the UFC. Not that he was or is a big star in pro wrestling. In fact, I think if he went back to WWE now it would be a massive anti-climax, and I doubt he'd take many of those new UFC fans back with him.

[CleetusVanDamme]

Assuming you are talking about what I wrote

 

 

Kind of. It's more directed at your post being quoted with the shit comment added on top of it by someone else.

 

 

You're alright. Especially because you actually understand what the argument is

 

 

Brock added those buys to the UFC PPV by his name value in WWE. Those 400k or so who ordered that first Brock fight remembered him from WWE and remembered he was a big star for the company in a time 2002-2003 where a lot of fans enjoyed the product more than the PG era, regardless of what time period drew more.

 

 

Again though, that 400k is more than would actually order most Lesnar headlined WWE shows. If they were such big fans of Lesnar and actually ordered his wrestling shows then he would have been a legit draw for WWE.

 

 

I'm not denying that a big part of that UFC buyrate was ex wrestling fans (I think most UFC ppv's will have a big % of that fanbase now as well), but for his first fight I'd say it was just as much a case of "Holy shit! a wrestler in the UFC" or "Look at the size of this guy" style curiosity buys, rather than "I loved watching this guy wrestle, now I'm going to order this to see him fight for real".

[Big Jock Knew]

Wrestlemania 19, Brock Lesnar's one WM main event v Angle, got 560,000 buys (undercard included Austin, The Rock and Hogan)

 

Wrestlemania 21, headlined by Batista v HHH, got 1,085,000 buys (undercard included JBL and HBK).

 

I can see your point but I think this has more to do with the build to the respective shows. WrestleMania XIX stands up as being a good show even though there are parts of it which are a bit of a mess. Mania 21, however, is one of the best they have done in recent memory in my opinion. Considering both were four hour shows, 21 managed to get by on having eight matches (seven of which were singles and all had adequate-to-excellent build) and also had the lure of Hogan almost certainly turning up with his 'Real American' schtick.

 

In short, I think Mania 21 is an example of a WrestleMania that promised a lot and delivered the goods.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

also had the lure of Hogan almost certainly turning up with his 'Real American' schtick.

Nah, even I'll admit that one. He hadnt even agreed to be there until the weekend. WWE didn't advertise a Hogan appearance at WrestleMania 21 and his role didnt warrant anyone buying the PPV for him. He was there for the Hall of Fame, and they negotiated a WM spot on the card since he was going to be there. That buildup was one of the best things they've ever done to promote a Mania main event. Triple H and Batista was the draw for that PPV. The numbers on Raw leading up to it said as much. On the contrary, if there was ever going to be a WrestleMania you were guaranteed of being a success its WrestleMania 19? Michaels first WrestleMania in 5 years, Austin's return to face the Rock, Hogan's return to face the man he's had the most history and Lesnar vs Angle? And it died on its arse royally.

[PepperPlunge]

Wrestlemania 19, Brock Lesnar's one WM main event v Angle, got 560,000 buys (undercard included Austin, The Rock and Hogan)

 

Wrestlemania 21, headlined by Batista v HHH, got 1,085,000 buys (undercard included JBL and HBK).

 

I can see your point but I think this has more to do with the build to the respective shows. WrestleMania XIX stands up as being a good show even though there are parts of it which are a bit of a mess. Mania 21, however, is one of the best they have done in recent memory in my opinion. Considering both were four hour shows, 21 managed to get by on having eight matches (seven of which were singles and all had adequate-to-excellent build) and also had the lure of Hogan almost certainly turning up with his 'Real American' schtick.

 

In short, I think Mania 21 is an example of a WrestleMania that promised a lot and delivered the goods.

 

Absolutely.

[Big Jock Knew]

I'm not saying Hogan was the main draw. At least at the time, I had an inkling he'd show up. I'm sure other people might have felt the same. I'm not taking anything away from the booking leading up to that Mania. The build up to Triple H vs Batista was incredible and rightfully did a great PPV number.

[jimufctna24]

Assuming you are talking about what I wrote

 

 

Kind of. It's more directed at your post being quoted with the shit comment added on top of it by someone else.

 

 

You're alright. Especially because you actually understand what the argument is

 

 

Brock added those buys to the UFC PPV by his name value in WWE. Those 400k or so who ordered that first Brock fight remembered him from WWE and remembered he was a big star for the company in a time 2002-2003 where a lot of fans enjoyed the product more than the PG era, regardless of what time period drew more.

 

 

Again though, that 400k is more than would actually order most Lesnar headlined WWE shows. If they were such big fans of Lesnar and actually ordered his wrestling shows then he would have been a legit draw for WWE.

 

 

I'm not denying that a big part of that UFC buyrate was ex wrestling fans (I think most UFC ppv's will have a big % of that fanbase now as well), but for his first fight I'd say it was just as much a case of "Holy shit! a wrestler in the UFC" or "Look at the size of this guy" style curiosity buys, rather than "I loved watching this guy wrestle, now I'm going to order this to see him fight for real".

Fair enough

 

Those 400k would have been also made up of casual fans who would watch Brock on Smackdown every week and not bothered to actually order most of his PPV that he headlined. An audience who paid for Summerslam 2002 to see The Rock for example would remember Brock very well as he was such a prominent role on that card and I am sure that did more than 400K buys, it is more about exposure rather than drawing power.

 

Yes the curiosity thing of how a pro wrestler would do contributed to it, just like it did with Ken Shamrock. Although Brock had an more instant effect than Shamrock. Plus Ken had in addition to those former pro wrestling fans brought back for a while some of the old school UFC fans, the audience Brock brought in was purely those who had been exposed to his pro wrestling career, making his cross over appeal in many ways bigger despite Shamrock being the pioneer in doing this.

 

I am sure if Steve Austin, Rock or any other big time WWE Main eventer in a different world had the skills that Brock had and applied them to MMA they would have done the exact same as could have Kurt Angle if he had faced Puder in 2006. There is a tier below of occasional main eventers though made up of the likes of Bobby Lashley, Christian and Booker T who I would not expect even if they had the skills would have had the effect Lesnar had due lack or aura (Lashley and Booker) or size (Christian)

 

As said above with the "look at his size" comment Brock just had the look and aura about him that breeded curiosity, most WWE main eventers have that but some like the ones above just dont.

[The Maestro]

JBL at a push, although while I was big fan of the character, I'd have much preferred him as an upper-midcard heel that a babyface had to go through to get to the title shots, rather than champion.

 

That JBL title run was the greatest thing about the dark days of 2004. One of my favourite title runs of the last decade. Loved it.

[TheBigBoot]

The best choices for me for the 'Next Number 1 Babyface' right now are all heels: Skip Sheffield, Sheamus, Alberto Del Rio, The Miz and Wade Barrett I think all have the potential to get over as good babyfaces. Could they be the top babyface? Until we see any of them in a regular babyface role it is impossible to say. Longterm it is hard to say who has the most potential but short term, I'd say Sheamus is the one who could turn now and have them start building him for a headline spot at WrestleMania XXVIII.

 

Don't think any of the current babyfaces have shown that kind of potential. The only ones who might (like Kingston and Morrison) have all been around for years doing the same thing and been the victim of what feels like four or five stop-start pushes apiece that it will take something big for them to get over to that level in the form of a sustained push. The next time either of them get a push they need to go all the way with it because another false push could send them into Shelton Benjamin territory for life.

 

Im talking about whos next Im fully aware its going to be cena for at least 5 or so years

 

The thing is Cena's had a pretty lengthy stretch on top now. He was picked to become a top guy in 2003, when him and Orton were seen as the guys to carry the company forward, fully achieved it in 2005 and barring the odd period when he's been out injured he's been a top guy ever since whether he's had the title/being challenging for it or not (and really the only extended period he seemed to go without fighting for it was in 2008). During that time they really should have groomed the next headliner who would step up to headline PPVs in the 2010-12 'Era'. Not necessarily someone to "replace" him (they have two brands after all) but someone who was a legit star who could be on that Cena/Batista level. They never did. As it is there are plenty of guys like R-Truth who I think can work well opposite a Cena/Triple H/Undertaker/Batista (were he to return) but not many I could see as a Cena type who could draw some money in their own right. They came close at times with Jeff Hardy and Randy Orton where they both went through short periods where they looked like they could have broken through to that Cena level, although I don't consider them the next generation as much as guys from his generation/before.

 

Over the last year or so I've noticed a few comments that if Cena's heel turn is ever to happen it has to happen now/comparing him to being at the stage Hogan was in 1995-96. The problem I always had with that idea in the past was always that there is noone who could realistically replace him. Looking back the difference is that in 2005-2007 when I or anyone else said that I always thought they'd have had someone lined up and ready by 2010. Not that he would necessarily turn heel then (or even at all) but that there would be someone at his level by that point. That there still isn't is a bit worrying if Cena were to have to suddenly retire (or even be out longterm with an injury).

 

who does everyone think it will be I think Alex Riley has got one hell of a chance. Also maybe Tyler Black hes got everything needed imo

 

I think it's Evan Bourne, Danielson, or Davey Richards.

 

Bourne's one of the most underused guys they have. A few years ago I thought Bourne had the potential to develop into something special. Was really impressed how well he had adapted to the WWE style, he had the underdog thing going opposite guys like Kane and seemed to be getting over as WWE's version of 1998-99 Kidman. Never saw him as the next John Cena but he did look like he could have become the next Rey Mysterio who can play the underdog and appeal to the younger audience but it seems that role has been marked for Sin Cara. Shame because maybe if they'd gone all the way with him as Cena's sidekick after their stuff last summer he could have become a fulltime upper midcard guy but I think he's been the victim of those constant stop-start pushes where noone gets over in the end. I really do think he had something to offer.

 

I'll admit with Bryan it took a while for me to get into him but he's clearly one of the better workers they have right now. Don't see him as a top face but I do think he'll be in the title picture on SmackDown! at some point. Probably after he turns heel (you know that is going to happen eventually) and takes Michael Cole as his manager or something. Like Bourne he seems to work best against bigger guys (Sheamus feud was really good) which I think could work well as a sneaky little heel. Not saying he has nothing to offer as a face (he's been very good on SmackDown! lately) and I'd have bought him against Miz for the WWE Title had they gone that route instead of Morrison and Lawler (Cena at WM was always going to happen and like I said I don't see Bryan at that level) but I think that his best chance of headlining might be as a heel.

 

Haven't ever seen Richards.