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Has Ziggler ever done a good wrestling promo? He was cracking on commentary on Raw, and he was great in a little segment he did on a chat show, but I don't think he's ever done a good speech standing in a wrestling ring or on the stage with a microphone.

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Nobody...

 

Kofi Kingston? Daniel Bryan? Freakin Miz's lacky?

 

We have fallen a long way to go for top babyfaces The Roxk, Austin, Taker and Bret Hart to these lads...

 

The only person I like over the last year has been Ziggler and he is a heel and not even close!

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Nobody...

 

Kofi Kingston? Daniel Bryan? Freakin Miz's lacky?

 

We have fallen a long way to go for top babyfaces The Roxk, Austin, Taker and Bret Hart to these lads...

 

 

Freakin? Are you being serious? Freakin? Enough about cringe worthy Americanisms, Skip Sheffield is to undergo his third surgery on his troublesome ankle, however when he gets back I strongly suspect he will he will feud with Wade Barrett. Sheffield has a Brock Lesnar look about him, I can see him go far!

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Nobody...

 

Kofi Kingston? Daniel Bryan? Freakin Miz's lacky?

 

We have fallen a long way to go for top babyfaces The Roxk, Austin, Taker and Bret Hart to these lads...

 

That's not really true though is it, the likes of Kingston, Riley, Bryan, aren't at that level now, but neither was, The Ringmaster, or Rocky Maivia, or Mean Mark Callous before they got a bit of luck, or the right character clicked with the audience, or they just generally got over. With the right booking and a few tweaks of character who is to say Kingston or Ziggler or Riley couldn't be the next big thing. These guys have the tools, but it will depend on a whole lot of luck, and for the right circumstances for it to happen. I don;t think they should be discounted as any worse than previous top guys before they've had a chance to attempt to fulfill their potential. Hell, it took Bret Hart 8 years of being a full time midcarder to get to main event level.

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Hell, it took Bret Hart 8 years of being a full time midcarder to get to main event level.

That was a much different time though. Look at the main eventers of the last ten to fifteen years, it's a much quicker pace.

 

Stone Cold debuted at the end of 1995 and won King of the Ring and coined the biggest wrestling catchphrase ever in June 1996. By the end of '96, he was feuding with the big guns and he won the Rumble in '97, barely a year after his debut, and went on to have a WrestleMania classic with Bret Hart. A year after that, he won the title in the main event of WrestleMania.

 

Rock debuted in November 1996 and won his first world title two years later, by which point he was the second top babyface in the company (and then turned heel to win the title). As much as people talk about the "Die Rocky Die" phase, it really didn't last long.

 

Triple H debuted in April 1995. He was due to win King of the Ring a year later, and didn't because of his mates. He did win it in 1997 though, and spent the next couple of years in main programs as one of the most popular stars, winning his first world title in 1999.

 

Mick Foley debuted just after WrestleMania in 1996, beat the Undertaker several times that year and main-evented a pay-per-view against WWF Champion Shawn Michaels. He was always around the top of the card before eventually winning his first WWF title at the end of 1998, less than three years in.

 

Cena and Batista both debuted mid-2002, won their first world titles at WrestleMania in 2005. Orton debuted around the same time as them, won his first world title in August 2004.

 

Kane debuted October 1997, won the WWF title June 1998.

 

Big Show debuted February 1999, won the title that November.

 

Jericho debuted in 1999, had a bait-and-switch WWF title win less than a year later. Won his proper first World titles in late 2001.

 

Lesnar debuted just after WrestleMania 18, won the title at the SummerSlam.

 

Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit debuted early 2000, won their first world titles at WrestleMania in 2004. And they'd both missed a year in between because of injuries or being off their tits.

 

There aren't many genuine main eventers in the last while that have taken more than four or five years to reach the top. Edge comes to mind, and JBL and Jeff Hardy (though he'd have done it much sooner had he not been so unreliable and spent years away).

 

Because of the increased pace of TV now, it's a lot harder to slowly, quietly work your way up. Especially when the midcard is creatively so bereft. Edge's midcard years had the Brood, the tag team with Christian, the "Smackdown Six" stuff, the heel turn and alliance with Lita. Compare that to Shelton Benjamin, who'd been around for about seven years and done nothing except a few pretty springboard moves, and the only people that gave a fuck about him anymore were people on the Internet who still talked about him like he was a rookie full of potential. If Morrison doesn't come back strong from the injury, he's in danger of being in the same boat Shelton was in the last few years. Kingston and Ziggler have both been around for about three years or so now, and they've spent it mostly doing fuck all. They've both had moments that could've and should've elevated them, but instead, they're having their 47352393634th midcard title match against each other.

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I have to agree with what Michael_3165 and Pitcos (that was quite an insight to peoples rise in WWE)

 

I think WWE is heading into another New Gen Era, accpet this will be much worse, that atleast had HBK and Bret, this next era I feel will be filled with so-so wrestlers.

 

Also baring injury, Cena will be running wild for another good 7-8 years yet, yes the thought of that terrifies me too, I'm not too fussed about it because I dont really care anymore, not like I used too.

 

Who says the likes of Kofi, Miz etc will be in WWE in 6 years? I bet money that Kofi probably wont be, this reminds me of a few years ago when everyone was all over Mr Anderson balls saying he was going to be the next massive star in WWE, and now where is he? being the drizzling shits in TNA thats where.

 

You can say that nobody knew the Ring Master would become Stone Cold or Rocky into The Rock, thats true but their wasnt anyone like them before, what I mean is you cant go from Hulkamania to 3:16 back to Hulkamania, which is what Cenation is, people wont buy into it, like before.

 

I mean really how do you replace the Undertaker? Have someone do the same gimmick? wont work imo.

 

I also believe you need stars to make stars, where would Stone Cold be without his matches against JakeTheSnake and Bret Hart, two really big names, where would Brock be without beating TheRock, Taker and Killing Hogan?

 

TripleH without his matches against Foley, theirs always these points that you come across.

 

Right now all WWE have is Cena and Orton and they dont lose to new guys, atleast not in a believable way.

 

I think most of us have been watching that long that we think everything is set in stone, that their will be another big number 1 babyface like Hogan, Austin etc, perhaps their just wont be one.

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where would Brock be without beating TheRock, Taker and Killing Hogan?

 

Nowhere. Which is pretty much the same place he was after beating those names.

 

 

Can we stop pretending like Brock was some sort of megastar please?. At least on a "top guy" level. Cena, Batista, and Orton have all easily surpassed his level of stardom since he fucked off. He's irrelevant in a "number one babyface" topic.

 

 

Right now all WWE have is Cena and Orton and they dont lose to new guys, atleast not in a believable way.

 

 

They're booked exactly the same as 95% of the top babyfaces ever have been.

 

Who did Austin ever lose to "believably"?.

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Bret Hart and twice would be the answer.

 

 

 

And that was long before he was a top guy. Lets say post WM-14. Who did he lose to?, and what made it anymore "believable" than when Cena loses.

 

He was definately well above upper midcard at the time though.

 

He lost to Kurt Angle at Unforgiven 2001 pretty believable. Angle was going to break his ankle and Austin tapped.

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Bret Hart and twice would be the answer.

 

 

 

And that was long before he was a top guy. Lets say post WM-14. Who did he lose to?, and what made it anymore "believable" than when Cena loses.

 

He was definately well above upper midcard at the time though.

 

He lost to Kurt Angle at Unforgiven 2001 pretty believable. Angle was going to break his ankle and Austin tapped.

 

 

But what makes that more believable than Cena losing by pinfall to a SCM, Pedigree, or a Batistabomb?.

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Regarding Prince Pitcos' post up there, I think that was true of those times but that hasn't been the case for some time. So much used to happen so fast for a good decade there, the change from 92 to 96, from 97 to 2000 from 2000 to 2003 were all pretty huge. It's not like that as much now, Cenas been on top for a good 6 years now and although plenty has changed in that time, compare the changes in that time to a 6 year period in the 90s and the changes seem minimal. And those 6 years have flown by, whereas 97 to 2000 felt like a lifetime in comparison. Maybe that's just because I'm older or maybe it's because so little had happened compared to then.

 

Some were discussing Brocks push the other day and the Lashley push and how after giving them so much they up and left...and many seem to be able to pull themselves away from WWE today than those of the past, Batista being another example. I think there's a good chance WWE are reluctant to throw so much on one guy these days and are more likely to give a chance to a guy that's stuck around a long time through thick and thin, possibly, partly due to that.

 

Either way, really absolutely anyone could catch on regardless of how long they've been about.

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He lost to Bret Hart and Kurt Angle, and both were when he was a heel. Austin (without crocked referees, handicaps, worked injuries or a bombardment of weapon shots and interference) never lost to anyone. WrestleMania 13 onward Austin hardly hit the mat and never clean. Even when he was a heel and he lost to Kurt Angle, his hand was under the bottom rope as he tapped to give it a controversial ending or when The Rock beat him at Survivor Series 2001, Angle had to twat him with the belt. And to right as well. You protect your stars. Wins and loses do matter for me.

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