ROH

[cobystag]

They don't know how to pace cards properly, but the main event matches are really good. It's just a shame that the undercard stuff is wrestled the same way.

 

That (fortunately or unfortunately depending on what kind of styles you like) is a thing of ROH's past with Gabe in charge.

 

Ever since Pearce took over the undercard stuff is definitely NOT main event worthy, or even wrestled in the same style as what people expect/want from an ROH main event.

 

They've definitely been building their cards up better over the past 2+ years, but this has resulted in a lot more filler matches, even filler shows if the matches on top don't deliver.

[The King Of Swing]

I don't hate ROH I hate its fanbase or the ones that attend the shows anyway.

[AndyUK]

They don't know how to pace cards properly, but the main event matches are really good. It's just a shame that the undercard stuff is wrestled the same way.

 

This is a big reason for me. Alright, yeah, its great that there is a promotion that adopts a no limits style and allows wrestlers to truly show off what they can do but that approach has plenty of flaws when it comes to putting on an actual show.

 

I don't dislike ROH at all, they've put on some brilliant matches but I find it hard to get into it properly because I find that a lot of their shows and a lot of their wrestlers don't really stand out from the crowd. Every show has a slew of good matches and one or two great matches and don't get me wrong, that isn't a bad thing but sometimes, I just want them to give me something different. I haven't watched it properly in a while to be fair though, I'm just judging on what I've seen before.

 

The more you see something, the more you become desensitized to its impact and that is the case with anything and that. The great looking spots should mean something when they're done, they shouldn't be used all of the time and not everybody should because wrestling is all about standing out from the crowd and being diverse. People bitch about big man wrestlers being slow or spot monkeys not knowing anything about psychology but if everyone wrestled like Bret Hart did or flew around like Rey Mysterio in his heyday, wrestling would get old very fast.

[King Pitcos]

To look hard and cool, obviously. And because it's completely warranted.

[air_raid]

Final Battle was actually a decent example of a well-built card. Exciting but not overwhelming opener, midcard matches which were exactly that - midcard - the six man tag was very "fun" without being too much, then the World title match was a "main event" with big moves, hard hitting and drama.

 

Then they went indyriffic overkill with Steen vs Generico, but that had its moments of storytelling. The ending was poetic justice, even it had been preceded by the previously-mentioned NONSENSE kick outs, and delivered the ending most wanted, to round off the show on a high.

[Checkmate]

I quite like ROH but for me the commentary is very poor imo they dont get the story lines over very well

[The Cum Doctor]

I thought the title match overdid the nearfalls FAR too much. If they stopped it with a tapout during that submission exchange I'd have remembered it VERY fondly. Now all I think of is a match that went too long and completely killed the interest I had in it.

 

The Steen/Generico match was ridiculous and had the very worst of what people think of indy, but fuck it, it kept me into it the whole way.

[air_raid]

I quite like ROH but for me the commentary is very poor imo they dont get the story lines over very well

 

Prazak on DVDs where its dubbed on in post-production sounds bored shitless. The live iPPV commentary is ok. Kevin Kelly is the same "over-excited fat kid when the ice cream truck pulls up" that he was in the WWF.

[air_raid]

Apologies for the double post, but I had to bump this because I imagine some of you would get a rise out of this like I did. Well, at least three of you.

 

From the ROHbot board

Its funny because I just watched Tyler Black vs. Nigel from Take No Prisoners in 2008, and in that the crowd wanted Black to win twice as much as Toronto wanted Davey to. Funny how things change. Think Toronto's Hogan vs. Rock crowd mixed with the kick-out intensity of Shawn vs. Undertaker, and thats what you got.

 

[gadge]

I've followed ROH since the beginning, and obviously am a pretty big fan of theirs, but I'd never post something like that, it's ridiculous.

 

The problem with a niche product like ROH is a percentage of its biggest fans have a polarising effect - they might convince someone who'd never seen ROH to try it, but then turn the same people off by not accepting fair criticism of the same product.

 

As much as I enjoy ROH, I'd never consider it the be-all and end-all of pro wrestling. In fact, if I were limited to being able to keep up with one promotion, I'd pick WWE. What I get from ROH is what WWE doesn't offer. While I haven't seen Final Battle from last year yet, I'm looking forward to Steen vs Generico from that show. I understand the criticism of it that's been mentioned in the thread here, but as the feud-ender (and what a feud it's been from what I've seen so far) I expect the OTT kick-outs and all that. I wouldn't want every wrestling match I watch to be like that, but as part of a balanced wrestling diet, some matches like that here and there are fun. I wouldn't expect someone who doesn't watch ROH regularly to watch that match out of context and enjoy it in the same way, that would also be ridiulous.

[Richie Freebird]

Pleasantly surprised to see some sensible and grown up discussion here. I

[Tommy!]

I can't help but think that some of us just can't see past the production and venues, and that if one or two ROH style matches were held on WWE's shows they would be regarded as very good encounters. I don't want to be accused of comparing ROH's main event wrestlers with Undertaker and Michaels, but their 2 Wrestlemania matches over used the near falls probably more than on ROH's shows and look at the popular opinion on those bouts.

 

And that is the main issue for me, or was (as I say I've not watched any for a while), the odd match was fun enough. A card full was just too much to take in.

You can count the number of shows from all company's I've seen over the years I've genuinely not enjoyed on one hand, with ROH I just don't care. I don't hate it or love it I just have little reason to care and find i drift in the matches as theres too much going off and not enough reason to engage and so its not worth my time or investment over something that will draw me in.

 

Edit also its to note the style of near falls used and how they employed them. They didn't just throw them out there because near falls are cool~. I'm not saying ROH just does that but i've seen indy matches that do more than once

[Carbomb]

Most of the reasons have been covered here, so I'll just add a few tweaks. Following a long discussion on here a few months back, I decided it was probably best not to lambast people for what they like, as it seemed that a lot of the "anti-smark" movement was reaching heights (or, perhaps, lows) that the "smark" movement had reached a few years previously, and then a few voices of reason made the very good point that we're on here because we LIKE something, and want to talk about it. We shouldn't be trying to make fellow fans feel bad for what they like - we're already a bunch of fans of a niche product in a world where non-fans frequently try to make us feel bad for liking it in the first place. WWE fans, WCW fans, TNA fans, King's Road, Ark Road, Strong Style, lucharesu, Muga, Gotchism, Lucha Libre, American Indy, BritWres, World of Sport, Pinoy, The Judaean People's Front, The People's Front of Judaea (splitters), we should just be considering it good enough that we like wrestling in the first place and can chat about it on here. The number of friends I have that I can discuss wrestling with are treasured rarities, because you don't meet many out there in the scary, real world with its natural light and human people who don't collect figures and things.

 

BUT

 

1. ROH style is, as has often been pointed out, over the top, unrealistic, and badly planned in terms of both psych and booking placing. Nobody knows their place on a card. Granted, this is a problem with most indies all over the world, but more pronouncedly so in ROH. Too many guys trying to have the MOTN when they should be working with the other guys on the card to produce the emotional rollercoaster that a card should be. If you're in an opener, you don't have nearfalls or kick-outs of finishers or brawl for ages outside the ring or what-have-you - your job is to warm up the crowd, not burn them out. If you're in a "down" match, i.e. before the main or semi-main, you have even less to do - your job is to give them a break, some light relief before the match they're to get fired up for, again the main or semi-main.

 

The problem is the attitude - all these guys think too much of how they can get themselves over, they're not team-players who realise the card of a wrestling show is like most things in entertainment: it's a conglomeration of different parts, designed to provide different moments. It's a very short-term attitude - if you realise you're part of something bigger, and wrestle like it, you'll be helping the main guys get over, your company gets a reputation for putting on VERY enjoyable shows, your rep goes up by extension, you get more trust as a worker, you get moved up the card, you get to shine and prove your worth in the main event. Simple.

 

2. An extension of the style problem - most of the matches are spotfests, and, as a result, whenever they tone it down slightly, you get ROH fans citing those toned-down matches as examples of how "ROH aren't just all spotfests, see". Sorry, don't see, they're still spotfests, they're just not as spotty. And just because someone does a bit of chain or ground-work does mean you're toning it down - tech matches and brawls can be spotfests too. Whilst I'm not as down on that type of match as I used to be, their over-use is still evident. There's a place for that sort of match on the card, but not all through it.

 

3. The constant claims made by both wrestlers and fans that it's a "Japanese style", and that people who wrestle RoH or US indy are practitioners of Strong Style, without a single fucking clue as to what they're talking about. Once again, for those I haven't harassed with this before: head-drops, stiffness and sporting handshakes are not what make up Strong Style or King's Road/Ark Road. They're potential by-products of it, not a base - there are plenty of Strong Style and King's/Ark Road wrestlers who don't work that way.

 

4. The biggest problem for me personally with ROH is the larger part of the fans, plain and simple. They're incredibly obnoxious, and what's worse than that, their obnoxiousness isn't even justified. They talk and post as if they're the true benchmark of wrestling (I think one of them referred to himself as a "wrestling maven"), and yet their supposed knowledge of wrestling doesn't extend to the logic of wrestling psychology, or, even if it does, they retreat into opinion, which is fine if you like something, but not if you're behaving like you're better than somebody else. Also, they behave like ROH is where you see the best wrestling of anywhere, even guest promotions - I remember a load of people creaming their jeans about the DragonGate multi-man tag they had a few years back, talking about how it was the best match they'd ever seen thus far (which may have been true), and then a few had the audacity to claim it was probably the best DG match ever. It really wasn't - it was a pretty standard DG sprint, from what I saw.

 

Oh, and to top it off, they just don't, or won't, accept that people think ROH is bad. Several times, on this board and others, I've seen people post their disapproval, only to be met with (with varying levels of politeness/rudeness) a basic sentiment of "Oh, don't you like good wrestling then?"

 

 

 

 

So, after much rambling and ranting, the short, short answer to your question is: you get back what you put out. For years, since the height of ECW until only a few years back, so-called "smart" fans were looking down their noses at fans of WWE and WCW, behaving like they'd found REAL wrestling. In fact, you could call them the wrestling equivalent of conspiracy theorists, laughing at the so-called "sheeple" who only followed what Big Brother Vince and the nWo put out because they didn't know any better and THEY had the real scoop on what was happening and what you were missing out on.

 

Good thing about this place, however, is that it seems to be very "post-". It's evolved past all that stupid rivalry and factioning, there's generally good discussion going on, and usually the only time people make fun of others for their wrestling tastes is when those others are behaving like they need taking down a notch. You'll find that, from ButchReedMark, who loves his American wrestling all the way through from old-school Memphis through WCW to modern day WWE, to Richie, who loves his US indies, to The Dart, who loves his holiday camp-style wrestling with all its carny goodness , to Snitsky's Back Acne, freaky and $tew who love their SHIMMER and assorted ladies' feds (and $tew also loves NJPW), to Big Benny HG who loves his BritWres, to ... who loves his TNA (someone help me out here), to Pitcos who loves his WWE, to PUNQ who seemingly loves ALL Puro, to all of us who post on this forum who love something wrestling-related, we're all a big bunch of people who'd give a Star Trek convention a run for their money in geekiness - and we refuse to apologise for or feel ashamed of it.

[gadge]

Ah, Carbomb. Good post with a lot of good points, but I can't remember point 3 being particularly true of ROH any time recently, though at least in your use of "for those I haven't harassed with this before" you recognise this is something that's just annoyed you in the past and stayed with you.

 

I think ROH fans get tarred with point 4 excessively nowadays as well, tbh. Going further into specifics, I'm pretty sure that DG six-man from 2006 still stands as one of the best DG have done in the West, despite sequels on ROH's WrestleMania weekend shows in 2007 and 2008, several in DGUSA and a couple in this country, so while it might be a bit cringeworthy to listen to fans chant "Please Don't Stop", it's not like there wasn't a reason behind it.