UFC 127: Penn vs Fitch Discussion thread

[Jonny Vegas]

So I watched the Countdown show and, well, fucking hell. That bit on Jorge Rivera losing his daughter was absolutely heart breaking. I was already supporting him by default since he's going against Bisping, but now it's on a whole other level.

 

Really classy of Bisping to be calling him a faggot during the weigh-in, too. The knob.

 

Did you miss the childish racist shit Rivera and his team has been doing and saying the last few weeks? Calling someone a faggot is fucking nothing compared to when Mike spat on the corner which he will no doubt pay a price for, End of the day Rivera got destroyed tonight, maybe 1 day he will talk himself up another fight on the upper of the card but he showed nothing but a wild right swing. Bisping made him humble tonight, Rivera needs to leave the shit talking to those like Sonnen who can you know back it up (when he is not failing drug test's Money laundering or being caught in submissions).

 

Well, except Rivera was getting the better of their exchanges until Michael landed that illegal and intentional knee. That should have been a straight DQ because I don't know how anyone can claim that was accidental and Rivera, if not concussed, was not far off being in that state.

 

The spitting, finger flipping, baiting and swearing were all really classy.

 

Do you ever talk anything other than nonsense?

 

Yes it was an illegal knee and yes there is a *chance* it was intentional...but for me I think it was much more a case of being so pumped up and wanted to hurt Rivera that he just threw the knee not thinking and letting emotion get the better of him.

 

I am not a bisping fan in the slightest and can't condone the spitting but in fairness he spat on the floor infront of the corner rather than directly at them and he flipped off a guy that was doing impressions of him of had it have been a white guy impersonating an ethnic minority would have been classed as hugely racist.

 

Rivera was never winning that fight, ever, with or without the knee and I refuse to buy into the nonsense that it causes such dramatically more damage because he had his knees down...when training I've bit hit with accidental illegal knees and I can tell you...a knee in the face is a knee in the face. He had a good amount of time to get some recovery in and fair play to him for not taking the cowards way out and saying he couldn't continue.

 

As I say I really not like Bisping...at all and if you have the time or care enough to search through my previous posts with regards to him you will see that I really don't rate him as anything more than upper mid level and think he's been relatively protected in his UFC career but any argument or suggestion that he won last night due to that knee, or that it would have been any other result without it, is nonsense.

[Cousin Jim Bob]

So I watched the Countdown show and, well, fucking hell. That bit on Jorge Rivera losing his daughter was absolutely heart breaking. I was already supporting him by default since he's going against Bisping, but now it's on a whole other level.

 

Really classy of Bisping to be calling him a faggot during the weigh-in, too. The knob.

 

Did you miss the childish racist shit Rivera and his team has been doing and saying the last few weeks? Calling someone a faggot is fucking nothing compared to when Mike spat on the corner which he will no doubt pay a price for, End of the day Rivera got destroyed tonight, maybe 1 day he will talk himself up another fight on the upper of the card but he showed nothing but a wild right swing. Bisping made him humble tonight, Rivera needs to leave the shit talking to those like Sonnen who can you know back it up (when he is not failing drug test's Money laundering or being caught in submissions).

 

Well, except Rivera was getting the better of their exchanges until Michael landed that illegal and intentional knee. That should have been a straight DQ because I don't know how anyone can claim that was accidental and Rivera, if not concussed, was not far off being in that state.

 

The spitting, finger flipping, baiting and swearing were all really classy.

 

Rivera and his camp probably should not have spent the last month baiting Bisping with class-less insults then. Rivera might have had a shot if he had'nt pissed Michael off so much.

 

They got what they wanted a fired up Bisping and he smashed Jorge to pieces.

 

The afters were not Bispings finest hour but I doubt it screwed up any chances of a future title shot in Dana's eyes.

[MoChatra]

So I watched the Countdown show and, well, fucking hell. That bit on Jorge Rivera losing his daughter was absolutely heart breaking. I was already supporting him by default since he's going against Bisping, but now it's on a whole other level.

 

Really classy of Bisping to be calling him a faggot during the weigh-in, too. The knob.

 

Did you miss the childish racist shit Rivera and his team has been doing and saying the last few weeks? Calling someone a faggot is fucking nothing compared to when Mike spat on the corner which he will no doubt pay a price for, End of the day Rivera got destroyed tonight, maybe 1 day he will talk himself up another fight on the upper of the card but he showed nothing but a wild right swing. Bisping made him humble tonight, Rivera needs to leave the shit talking to those like Sonnen who can you know back it up (when he is not failing drug test's Money laundering or being caught in submissions).

 

Well, except Rivera was getting the better of their exchanges until Michael landed that illegal and intentional knee. That should have been a straight DQ because I don't know how anyone can claim that was accidental and Rivera, if not concussed, was not far off being in that state.

 

The spitting, finger flipping, baiting and swearing were all really classy.

 

Do you ever talk anything other than nonsense?

 

What part of my comments above are nonsense. Rivera WAS getting the better of the exchanges. Of course the knee was intentional. Of course all those other things lacked class. No nonsense there.

 

Yes it was an illegal knee and yes there is a *chance* it was intentional...

 

So you think it was unintentional? OK, so when he threw the knee was he aiming for his torso? Or his legs? Jeez, you're sounding like Thierry Henry after he handballed against Ireland last year. Oh wait...

 

but for me I think it was much more a case of being so pumped up and wanted to hurt Rivera that he just threw the knee not thinking and letting emotion get the better of him.

 

:laugh: Oh right. So it was intentional, but he was so overcome with rage that it wasn't really intentional. In other news, 99.9% of fighters have their adrenaline pumping when they're in a fight. 99.9% of times they don't throw such a blatantly illegal blow.

 

I am not a bisping fan in the slightest and can't condone the spitting but in fairness he spat on the floor infront of the corner rather than directly at them and he flipped off a guy that was doing impressions of him of had it have been a white guy impersonating an ethnic minority would have been classed as hugely racist.

 

Whether he spat on the floor or directly on the white guy who impersonated him is irrelevant. It was completely unsportsmanlike and given he won the fight decisively, that should have been the end of the matter. There have been a zillion fights in MMA, boxing and other combat sports where guys talk shit about their opponents, but it's very rare for fighters to then react that way afterwards.

 

Rivera was never winning that fight, ever, with or without the knee and I refuse to buy into the nonsense that it causes such dramatically more damage because he had his knees down...when training I've bit hit with accidental illegal knees and I can tell you...a knee in the face is a knee in the face. He had a good amount of time to get some recovery in and fair play to him for not taking the cowards way out and saying he couldn't continue.

 

I didn't say Rivera was going to win the fight, but he was certainly holding his own against Bisping and the knee definitely had an effect. You're quite right that him having his knees on the ground doesn't automatically make the move one which causes more damage, but again, that's besides the point because it wasn't a move Rivera would have been expecting or ready for with both knees on the ground and he was clearly dazed by it whereas prior to that Bisping hadn't landed one blow that had Rivera in trouble.

 

As I say I really not like Bisping...at all and if you have the time or care enough to search through my previous posts with regards to him you will see that I really don't rate him as anything more than upper mid level and think he's been relatively protected in his UFC career but any argument or suggestion that he won last night due to that knee, or that it would have been any other result without it, is nonsense.

 

You don't know that. Though Bisping should have won and is the better fighter, Rivera does have enough power to knock Bisping out and had the knee not happened, Rivera could well have gone on to land a couple of really awesome shots later in round one to put Bisping away. At the same time, Bisping could and probably would have won the fight without the knee. However, a win has been overshadowed by really scummy behaviour (this isn't the first time we've seen the ugly side of Bisping) and he was royally rollocked by Dana White for doing that kind of stuff.

[pryko]

Rivera WAS getting the better of the exchanges.

 

REALLY!?

[Jonny Vegas]

So I watched the Countdown show and, well, fucking hell. That bit on Jorge Rivera losing his daughter was absolutely heart breaking. I was already supporting him by default since he's going against Bisping, but now it's on a whole other level.

 

Really classy of Bisping to be calling him a faggot during the weigh-in, too. The knob.

 

Did you miss the childish racist shit Rivera and his team has been doing and saying the last few weeks? Calling someone a faggot is fucking nothing compared to when Mike spat on the corner which he will no doubt pay a price for, End of the day Rivera got destroyed tonight, maybe 1 day he will talk himself up another fight on the upper of the card but he showed nothing but a wild right swing. Bisping made him humble tonight, Rivera needs to leave the shit talking to those like Sonnen who can you know back it up (when he is not failing drug test's Money laundering or being caught in submissions).

 

Well, except Rivera was getting the better of their exchanges until Michael landed that illegal and intentional knee. That should have been a straight DQ because I don't know how anyone can claim that was accidental and Rivera, if not concussed, was not far off being in that state.

 

The spitting, finger flipping, baiting and swearing were all really classy.

 

Do you ever talk anything other than nonsense?

 

What part of my comments above are nonsense. Rivera WAS getting the better of the exchanges. Of course the knee was intentional. Of course all those other things lacked class. No nonsense there.

 

Yes it was an illegal knee and yes there is a *chance* it was intentional...

 

So you think it was unintentional? OK, so when he threw the knee was he aiming for his torso? Or his legs? Jeez, you're sounding like Thierry Henry after he handballed against Ireland last year. Oh wait...

 

but for me I think it was much more a case of being so pumped up and wanted to hurt Rivera that he just threw the knee not thinking and letting emotion get the better of him.

 

:laugh: Oh right. So it was intentional, but he was so overcome with rage that it wasn't really intentional. In other news, 99.9% of fighters have their adrenaline pumping when they're in a fight. 99.9% of times they don't throw such a blatantly illegal blow.

 

I am not a bisping fan in the slightest and can't condone the spitting but in fairness he spat on the floor infront of the corner rather than directly at them and he flipped off a guy that was doing impressions of him of had it have been a white guy impersonating an ethnic minority would have been classed as hugely racist.

 

Whether he spat on the floor or directly on the white guy who impersonated him is irrelevant. It was completely unsportsmanlike and given he won the fight decisively, that should have been the end of the matter. There have been a zillion fights in MMA, boxing and other combat sports where guys talk shit about their opponents, but it's very rare for fighters to then react that way afterwards.

 

Rivera was never winning that fight, ever, with or without the knee and I refuse to buy into the nonsense that it causes such dramatically more damage because he had his knees down...when training I've bit hit with accidental illegal knees and I can tell you...a knee in the face is a knee in the face. He had a good amount of time to get some recovery in and fair play to him for not taking the cowards way out and saying he couldn't continue.

 

I didn't say Rivera was going to win the fight, but he was certainly holding his own against Bisping and the knee definitely had an effect. You're quite right that him having his knees on the ground doesn't automatically make the move one which causes more damage, but again, that's besides the point because it wasn't a move Rivera would have been expecting or ready for with both knees on the ground and he was clearly dazed by it whereas prior to that Bisping hadn't landed one blow that had Rivera in trouble.

 

As I say I really not like Bisping...at all and if you have the time or care enough to search through my previous posts with regards to him you will see that I really don't rate him as anything more than upper mid level and think he's been relatively protected in his UFC career but any argument or suggestion that he won last night due to that knee, or that it would have been any other result without it, is nonsense.

 

You don't know that. Though Bisping should have won and is the better fighter, Rivera does have enough power to knock Bisping out and had the knee not happened, Rivera could well have gone on to land a couple of really awesome shots later in round one to put Bisping away. At the same time, Bisping could and probably would have won the fight without the knee. However, a win has been overshadowed by really scummy behaviour (this isn't the first time we've seen the ugly side of Bisping) and he was royally rollocked by Dana White for doing that kind of stuff.

 

 

For a man of your alleged intelligence you seem to be having a really hard time understanding the difference between intentionally doing something pre-meditated in a genuine effort to gain the upper hand illegally and getting carried away in the moment with such a desire to your your opponent that you perform an illegal manouvre.

 

My point with regards to the knee is that when the adrenaline is pumping, added to a real desire to HURT your opponent as opposed to just beat him then I'm saying there is a very strong possibility that he threw the knee without thinking...wait this is illegal. Of course he intentionally threw the knee...his body didn't involuntarily spasm but the point I am making was that I don't believe there was any pre-meditated intent to hurt him with an illegal knee.

 

At what stage did I even suggest he meant to knee him in the torso or chest...you are watering down your own argument by making such ridiculous statements rather than constructing any form of valid point or listening to any argument against your points.

 

As far as your apparent shock and awe at fighters getting carried away and hitting unintentional illegal blows being possible, you actually see it fairly regularly that a fighter gets carried away and hits an illegal knee...if you were anywhere near the MMA fan you make yourself out to be then you would know that.

 

There is a huge difference to doing something totally illegal whilst being in full control of your thoughts, for example Daley's sucker punch of Koscheck after the bell and throwing a knee because you got carried away.

 

I I take it by your logic that you were equally disgusted by Jon Jones equally illegal multiple elbows onto Matt Hamill?

 

As corroborated by other members on here...I don't think Rivera was getting the better of the exchanges at all and I also don't think the knee did anywhere near the damage you are alleging...if after it connecting Rivera went face down into the canvas and was knocked out then he came around, was asked if he wanted to carry on and did then I would agree with you whole heartedly...but he just stayed in the same position on his hands and knees...got up...had a good three minutes or so and wasn't at all bandy legged or glazed over.

 

You seem to just have a huge bias against Bisping...as I said I personally can't stand the guy...never have...I wanted Rivera to win, don't rate Bisping in the MW division at all and think his constant whining about having only ever lost to ''two bullshit decisions'' and a ''lucky punch'' is utter bollocks...but i'm trying to view this incident in an un-biased and sensible manner. Your total reluctance to even consider that it was anything other than a pre-meditated intentional attempt to gain the upper hand by cheating astounds me and as I said...I would love to know what your opinion on Jon Jones' elbows is.

[firstnameunknown]

It was hardly one of those situations where a guy is getting up or going down and his opponent throws an unfortunately timed knee which happens to connect when there's an arm or a knee on the ground... Jorge was kneeling down with his arse on the floor and BOOM! It's the most indefensible illegal blow I've ever seen. And Bisping telling him to get up straight after was almost on a level of his "go back to wrestling" comment after he'd been out-punched by Matt Hammill for three rounds in terms of sheer dickery.

 

I'd love to see how much Chael Sonnen could wind him up.

[MoChatra]

For a man of your alleged intelligence you seem to be having a really hard time understanding the difference between intentionally doing something pre-meditated in a genuine effort to gain the upper hand illegally and getting carried away in the moment with such a desire to your your opponent that you perform an illegal manouvre.

 

Where did I say the knee was premeditated? I said it was intentional. INTENTIONAL AND PREMEDITATED AREN'T THE SAME THING.

 

My point with regards to the knee is that when the adrenaline is pumping, added to a real desire to HURT your opponent as opposed to just beat him then I'm saying there is a very strong possibility that he threw the knee without thinking...wait this is illegal. Of course he intentionally threw the knee...his body didn't involuntarily spasm but the point I am making was that I don't believe there was any pre-meditated intent to hurt him with an illegal knee.

 

I'd like to think he didn't go into the fight planning on hitting him with an illegal knee, and I'm sure that wasn't the case. However, that doesn't change the fact it was INTENTIONAL. Note: 'premeditated' is not spelt I-N-T-E-N-T-I-O-N-A-L.

 

At what stage did I even suggest he meant to knee him in the torso or chest...you are watering down your own argument by making such ridiculous statements rather than constructing any form of valid point or listening to any argument against your points.

 

You said, "YES, THERE IS A *CHANCE* IT WAS INTENTIONAL". The implication being that it likely wasn't intentional. Of course it fucking was. And again, INTENTIONAL AND PREMEDITATED AREN'T THE SAME THING.

 

As far as your apparent shock and awe at fighters getting carried away and hitting unintentional illegal blows being possible, you actually see it fairly regularly that a fighter gets carried away and hits an illegal knee...if you were anywhere near the MMA fan you make yourself out to be then you would know that.

 

Unintentional illegal knees (often to the bollocks) occur on many shows. Nothing surprising or shocking about that. A blatantly intentional knee is, and as firstnameunknown pointed out, that's exactly what it was.

 

There is a huge difference to doing something totally illegal whilst being in full control of your thoughts, for example Daley's sucker punch of Koscheck after the bell and throwing a knee because you got carried away.

 

So was Daley's suckerpunch premeditated? Did he go into that fight thinking "right, I'm going to twat that cunt in the back of the head after the fight"? Of course not. It was a spur of the moment yet intentional action. Just like Bisping's knee.

 

I I take it by your logic that you were equally disgusted by Jon Jones equally illegal multiple elbows onto Matt Hamill?

 

No. Different situation. Jones had Hamill finished but the ref wasn't stopping the fight (Jones even looked up at the ref, who I think was Mazzagatti, wondering why he wasn't stepping in). So he dropped a succession of downward elbows to get the stoppage but the ref docked him a point (and was then DQd when Hamill couldn't continue). He didn't drop those elbows because he was being a prick; Bisping delivered that knee because he was being a prick. Also, prior to that Jones-Hamill fight, the downward elbow rule had been liberally applied with single blows from that move often not even getting a warning (Kenny Florian regularly got away with them before that fight) whereas in MMA a single illegal knee to a downed opponent often gets a straight point deduction.

 

As corroborated by other members on here...I don't think Rivera was getting the better of the exchanges at all and I also don't think the knee did anywhere near the damage you are alleging...if after it connecting Rivera went face down into the canvas and was knocked out then he came around, was asked if he wanted to carry on and did then I would agree with you whole heartedly...but he just stayed in the same position on his hands and knees...got up...had a good three minutes or so and wasn't at all bandy legged or glazed over.

 

Do you have severe comprehension difficulties? I didn't say the knee caused terrible damage. He was definitely stunned, though, and even the commentators and docs picked up on this. That aside, my point is that that knee changed the momentum of the fight, which it did.

 

You seem to just have a huge bias against Bisping...as I said I personally can't stand the guy...never have...I wanted Rivera to win, don't rate Bisping in the MW division at all and think his constant whining about having only ever lost to ''two bullshit decisions'' and a ''lucky punch'' is utter bollocks...but i'm trying to view this incident in an un-biased and sensible manner. Your total reluctance to even consider that it was anything other than a pre-meditated intentional attempt to gain the upper hand by cheating astounds me and as I said...I would love to know what your opinion on Jon Jones' elbows is.

 

I think Michael Bisping's a great UFC fighter (he rarely has boring fights and always tries to make everything he's involved in interesting and/or exciting), and he couldn't have been nicer when I interviewed him a few years ago.

 

Once again, I NEVER SAID IT WAS PREMEDITATED. Unfortunately, it's a losing discussion with someone who interprets 'intentional' as meaning 'premeditated'.

[Cousin Jim Bob]

Rivera WAS getting the better of the exchanges.

 

REALLY!?

 

Yep thats where he lost me.

 

The stand up exchanges were the definition of a 50\50 wash before the knee but Bisping had scored two takedowns. So he was winning the round before it even happened on the judges score cards.

 

Please save us the whining that the knee changed the whole fight.

[MoChatra]

Rivera WAS getting the better of the exchanges.

 

REALLY!?

 

Yep thats where he lost me.

 

The stand up exchanges were the definition of a 50\50 wash before the knee but Bisping had scored two takedowns. So he was winning the round before it even happened on the judges score cards.

 

Please save us the whining that the knee changed the whole fight.

 

No they weren't 50/50. They had a stand-up exchange before the first takedown. Very few punches landed, but Rivera landed more. After the takedown, Bisping did hardly anything on the ground and the fight soon was back standing. They had another exchange and Rivera again got the better of the exchange, prompting Rogan after one particularly good punch to note "Bisping had a look of concern in his eye when that landed". Then came the second takedown, with Bisping again not landing any good, clean punches (Bisping went for the takedowns because he was worried about Rivera doing better than him standing). He then landed the knee, which Rivera was clearly dazed by, and after that Bisping started landing far more punches and the momentum definitely turned.

 

I still don't think the result would have been any different because Bisping's the better fighter, but to say the momentum of the fight didn't change after the knee is ridiculous. Note- that's not the same as saying the fight ended up completely different to how it would have without the knee, because that's not my point.

[pryko]

Rivera WAS getting the better of the exchanges.

 

REALLY!?

 

Yep thats where he lost me.

 

The stand up exchanges were the definition of a 50\50 wash before the knee but Bisping had scored two takedowns. So he was winning the round before it even happened on the judges score cards.

 

Please save us the whining that the knee changed the whole fight.

 

No they weren't 50/50. They had a stand-up exchange before the first takedown. Very few punches landed, but Rivera landed more. After the takedown, Bisping did hardly anything on the ground and the fight soon was back standing. They had another exchange and Rivera again got the better of the exchange, prompting Rogan after one particularly good punch to note "Bisping had a look of concern in his eye when that landed". Then came the second takedown, with Bisping again not landing any good, clean punches (Bisping went for the takedowns because he was worried about Rivera doing better than him standing). He then landed the knee, which Rivera was clearly dazed by, and after that Bisping started landing far more punches and the momentum definitely turned.

 

I still don't think the result would have been any different because Bisping's the better fighter, but to say the momentum of the fight didn't change after the knee is ridiculous. Note- that's not the same as saying the fight ended up completely different to how it would have without the knee, because that's not my point.

If someone landed a clean punch on your face i'm sure you'd have a look of concern on your face too. Just because Joe Rogan actually pointed one out doesn't mean Rivera was getting the better of the stand up.

 

Bisping took him down because he could (just as he had done previously) and for defensive reasons, and was then throwing elbows and a few punches prior to the knee.

[MoChatra]

Rivera WAS getting the better of the exchanges.

 

REALLY!?

 

Yep thats where he lost me.

 

The stand up exchanges were the definition of a 50\50 wash before the knee but Bisping had scored two takedowns. So he was winning the round before it even happened on the judges score cards.

 

Please save us the whining that the knee changed the whole fight.

 

No they weren't 50/50. They had a stand-up exchange before the first takedown. Very few punches landed, but Rivera landed more. After the takedown, Bisping did hardly anything on the ground and the fight soon was back standing. They had another exchange and Rivera again got the better of the exchange, prompting Rogan after one particularly good punch to note "Bisping had a look of concern in his eye when that landed". Then came the second takedown, with Bisping again not landing any good, clean punches (Bisping went for the takedowns because he was worried about Rivera doing better than him standing). He then landed the knee, which Rivera was clearly dazed by, and after that Bisping started landing far more punches and the momentum definitely turned.

 

I still don't think the result would have been any different because Bisping's the better fighter, but to say the momentum of the fight didn't change after the knee is ridiculous. Note- that's not the same as saying the fight ended up completely different to how it would have without the knee, because that's not my point.

If someone landed a clean punch on your face i'm sure you'd have a look of concern on your face too. Just because Joe Rogan actually pointed one out doesn't mean Rivera was getting the better of the stand up.

 

Bisping took him down because he could (just as he had done previously) and for defensive reasons, and was then throwing elbows and a few punches prior to the knee.

 

So Bisping was getting the better of the stand-up? REALLY? REALLY?!

 

Most of those punches and knees prior to the knee only connected with thin air. Unless throwing lots of air strikes scores points these days.

[pryko]

I never said that. I agree with Cousing Jim Bob. It was pretty much 50/50. Rivera landed one half decent shot, where as Bisping was throwing more strikes and landing them, although not cleanly on his chin.

[pryko]

Looks like a decent punch to me this

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhZl3P43Qi4&t=2m40s

[MoChatra]

I never said that. I agree with Cousing Jim Bob. It was pretty much 50/50. Rivera landed one half decent shot, where as Bisping was throwing more strikes and landing them, although not cleanly on his chin.

 

Bisping definitely threw more up until that knee but the vast majority were missing the target.

[MoChatra]

Looks like a decent punch to me this

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhZl3P43Qi4&t=2m40s

 

Up to that point, that was the only good punch he landed. Check through the vid from the opening second and you'll see. Meanwhile, Rivera landed several.