The Fortean/paranormal/conspiracy thread

[Famous Mortimer]

This might appeal to some people.NASA edit out UFOs 'n shit

Whilst I saw nothing in that video that even approaches the bare minumum requirements for evidence of anything, I will say this: if you really believe that the US went to the moon a couple of times in the 60s, and then never bothered going back there since, and that the 30-year old Shuttle represents mankind's most advances space-going craft, then you're more crazy than the crazies in that vid.

The thing in the late 60s was a propaganda race between the USA and the USSR. The most obvious reason we've not gone back for a while is that it's really fucking expensive and there's no-one left to impress any more. What you say is so often repeated to almost become common wisdom, but there's no evidence to suggest we've been back, or have more advanced space craft. I'd like to believe we've spent money for something so advanced, but the big bucks unfortunately have been spent on war.

[Loki]

One might argue that the incidents of reliable aviation sources seeing unidentified flying objects constitutes some proof that there are things up there that they don't bother to tell us about publicly.The space race may have started as a PR war, but created so many side benefits in terms of huge technological advancements that it seems unlikely to have halted in the way you suggest. The military importance of near-earth orbit is huge, and was undoubtedly hotly contested, but it's pretty hard to spot it going on as the BBC doesn't have a correspondent up there The US military budget over the past 40 years has been absolutely huge, and it seems reasonable to suggest that a large chunk has been spent on continuing aeronautic and orbital technology. Just as the Stealth plane and Aurora weere rumoured for decades before becoming "fact", so the likelihood is that there are plenty of other classified projects that would explain away ongoing UFO sightings and the like.Just as Aurora was years ahead of conventional Lockheed-Martin or Boeing technology, so there are probably orbital spacecraft operated by the military that are frankly decades ahead of NASA. It's not as exciting as alien conspiracies and all that, but much more plausible and indeed likely.

[Famous Mortimer]

One might argue that the incidents of reliable aviation sources seeing unidentified flying objects constitutes some proof that there are things up there that they don't bother to tell us about publicly.

That's not proof, though. That's the absence of another explanation, which is very different. And it's certainly not anything close to proof we've got a base on the dark side of the moon.

The space race may have started as a PR war, but created so many side benefits in terms of huge technological advancements that it seems unlikely to have halted in the way you suggest. The military importance of near-earth orbit is huge, and was undoubtedly hotly contested, but it's pretty hard to spot it going on as the BBC doesn't have a correspondent up there The US military budget over the past 40 years has been absolutely huge, and it seems reasonable to suggest that a large chunk has been spent on continuing aeronautic and orbital technology. Just as the Stealth plane and Aurora weere rumoured for decades before becoming "fact", so the likelihood is that there are plenty of other classified projects that would explain away ongoing UFO sightings and the like.Just as Aurora was years ahead of conventional Lockheed-Martin or Boeing technology, so there are probably orbital spacecraft operated by the military that are frankly decades ahead of NASA. It's not as exciting as alien conspiracies and all that, but much more plausible and indeed likely.

There may not be a BBC correspondent in space, but there are plenty down here, none of which have mentioned anything going from here to there. No-one involved in any of these presumably enormous projects has come forward, leaked a document, or anything of the sort. The stealth plane was an open secret that the US government just refused to acknowledge for years - not that many years, as it turns out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-71_Blackbird. Again, different to something which no-one knows anything about, if it exists at all. If the USA did have a base on the far side of the moon, or had super-advanced spaceships...let's examine this. Would it benefit them, in the middle of the most unpopular war ever, to keep it secret, and hide the billions and billions of dollars of spending, or tell people and get the gigantic positive publicity such a thing would generate (as it did in 1969)? There's no reason to keep it secret, there's no enemy they need a moonbase to combat, so a conspiracy theory about this makes no sense. I've highlighted all the weasel words - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_words - in your post. It's a real pain to argue against something which is so full of them. Edited October 20, 2008 by Famous Mortimer

[Loki]

That's a little patronising, which is unlike you Mortimer. There's nothing wrong with hypotheses in the absence of verifiable fact, and I'm setting out a hypothesis, not using weasel words to mimic fact. The declassified MoD reports released yesterday raise currently unanswerable questions that I am suggesting possible answers to. I don't actually think there are bases on the moon, that is pretty far-fetched, though as I said it wouldn't completely surprise me. All I am saying is that the traditional sceptic response of "oh, they are lying or accidentally mistook a funny shaped cloud" etc to well-documented and expertly-witnessed sightings is as far-fetched an explanation as thinking they are aliens.I am advocating a pragmatic approach to such things, neither dismissing out of hand nor leaping off the conspiracy deep end, but looking at the world with less naive eyes and accepting that there are plenty of things out there that are not public knowledge, that everyday folk sometimes spot or bump into. Given the hugely important part that secrecy plays in the development of new weaponry and military technology, this is a perfectly valid extrapolation of previously-classified and now public domain information.

[JLM]

You know what Loki said to me the other day? He said that the next space race should be to Mortimer's mum, because she's infinitely more vast and impressive than the moon and has a stronger gravitational pull.

[Astro Hollywood]

The problem I always have with these big government conspiracies is that neither our nor the American government really have much of a track record for being able to keep a secret. Just look at all the data that's been left on trains and toilet seats in recent months, for one example. Think of authority as Frank Spencer, but in a suit.

 

The lunar conspiracy thing seems to be arguing against itself a lot of the time. The moon landing was faked for that all important propeganda, while the Americans established an actual base on the moon and thought they'd actually keep that quiet. Which is it?

 

You could always make the argument in these situations that "well, they haven't kept it a secret, have they? Or we wouldn't be talking about it and looking at websites that show actual glass cities on the moon!" An argument I'd counter by saying "why are these secrets always uncovered by fucking nuts?"

[Loki]

I fucking hate the stupidity and obsessively blinkered nature of conspiracy nuts, Woyzeck, but (and I suspect you feel similarly) I often also wonder if they don't actually stumble upon something interesting from time to time. Those sort of sites have absolutely no quality filter on them, but the obsessive nature of conspiracy nuts means they do trawl through a lot of bland data that most people wouldn't normally bother with, and I suspect from time to time they do find a gem. Only problem is, people are rightly disinclined to believe them in the traditional spirit of the boy who cried wolf.I think there was a film based on this premise a few years ago, about a nut who stumbled into the middle of an actual real conspiracy. Can't remember what it was called.

[Wideload]

The Man Who Knew Too Little?

[Famous Mortimer]

That's a little patronising, which is unlike you Mortimer. There's nothing wrong with hypotheses in the absence of verifiable fact, and I'm setting out a hypothesis, not using weasel words to mimic fact.

I disagree, sorry. I highlighted the weasel words you used, it's not a hypothesis you're just putting out there. You clearly feel differently to me, but I'm just pointing out what your last post read like.

The declassified MoD reports released yesterday raise currently unanswerable questions that I am suggesting possible answers to. I don't actually think there are bases on the moon, that is pretty far-fetched, though as I said it wouldn't completely surprise me. All I am saying is that the traditional sceptic response of "oh, they are lying or accidentally mistook a funny shaped cloud" etc to well-documented and expertly-witnessed sightings is as far-fetched an explanation as thinking they are aliens.I am advocating a pragmatic approach to such things, neither dismissing out of hand nor leaping off the conspiracy deep end, but looking at the world with less naive eyes and accepting that there are plenty of things out there that are not public knowledge, that everyday folk sometimes spot or bump into. Given the hugely important part that secrecy plays in the development of new weaponry and military technology, this is a perfectly valid extrapolation of previously-classified and now public domain information.

Come on. Your original post was: " if you really believe that the US went to the moon a couple of times in the 60s, and then never bothered going back there since, and that the 30-year old Shuttle represents mankind's most advances space-going craft, then you're more crazy than the crazies in that vid." I see quite a gulf between that and "I don't actually think there are bases on the moon". As to the rest of it, Woyzeck summed it up pretty perfectly. There's a massive logic hole at the centre of all this.

[Loki]

Without getting into a linguistic argument, the stuff you highlighted as "Weasel Words" aren't actually examples of that. They are qualifiers "probably, unlikely" used to signify the acceptance of doubt in a situation, in this case showing that I wasn't trying to present my hypothesis as fact, but show a reasonable series of logical steps. Weasel words are phrases used to present the appearance of fact, such as "It is accepted that" or euphemisms etc.Anywhoooo... What logic hole? I'm saying that I believe it perfectly reasonable to suppose that the US military has the capability to fly into near-earth orbit and even to and from the moon (though not building huge skyscrapers on it, I accept that) using technology that is not public knowledge. It's not even like it's impossible given known technology! Your argument against this is "if they had, we'd have found out" and to then dismiss out of hand any possible pointers towards its existence. I'd say that that is pretty circular logic.

[Astro Hollywood]

Did any London UKFFers catch this?

[SpursRiot2012]

I didn't, no. But if this is quite a normal cloud related thing, then it surely would have been reported before?

[Ro_y Disco]

THE SINGLE GREATEST THING EVER AT THE MOMENT!:Creepy Gnome returns to town of Clodomira, province of Santiago del Estero, Argentina:http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/...icle1817406.eceafter the first major sighting in March of this year:http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/...icle1817406.eceHere's three videos from the original incident:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6X7n4RAboshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHXEqC5BCus (a mystery 'alternative version' of the first video, which casts a massive ammount of doubt on the who thing)http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1015181/duende/And two videos from the second incident:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6X7n4RAboshttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGRLRHkz8JsIn the Argentinian press the local government has admitted they've known about this 'creature' terrorising the town for over 20 years.A couple of posts of the excellent and unbiased Unexpalined-Mysteries forum recount credible experiences reported in the local press:

Please note that this is the SECOND time this year that the dwarf has been video-recorded in Argentina and the SIXTH major Argentinian dwarf sighting flap over the past six or seven years.In the very first spate of sightings, over several days, the dwarf terrorized two street cops and a soldier, so severely that two of them had to be hospitalized on suicide watch. (The dwarf knocked over the soldier's sentry box and then tossed him up into the branches of a tree! This was also witnessed by a second sentry.)That seems to be the common denominator between all the dwarf sightings - fear, even abject terror.

and an interesting reply

I don't know about you but I could be fairly easily terrorized by just about anybody able to toss me up into the branches of a tree.His fellow-sentry seems to have also been scared, although not as severely.And there was also the cop....Actually there were two police officers.In the first episode, which seems to have been the very first sighting of all, a patrolman flashed his light down an alley during the wee hours. He saw what appeared to him to be a boy around eight-years-old. He decided to approach the kid and put the fear of the Lord into him for being out so late.But when he reached the "child" it turned out to be a very old man."Go....away," ordered the old man.The cop took off running. He didn't slow down for 10 blocks.In the other "cop" case, two or three days later, radio-car officers failed to raise base.So they drove back to investigate.They found the radio dispatcher crouching under his desk, whimpering."He said he was going to take me to Hell!" he cried. "He said he was here to take me to Hell!"It seems the dwarf had been by to pay a social call.Like the soldier after that, the cop had to be hospitalized under suicide watch.

[Loki]

Cool!Sadly, as you say the existence of an "alternative" take of the video exposes it as a fake. Scary though.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Loki

[Famous Mortimer]

Without getting into a linguistic argument, the stuff you highlighted as "Weasel Words" aren't actually examples of that. They are qualifiers "probably, unlikely" used to signify the acceptance of doubt in a situation, in this case showing that I wasn't trying to present my hypothesis as fact, but show a reasonable series of logical steps. Weasel words are phrases used to present the appearance of fact, such as "It is accepted that" or euphemisms etc.

it seems unlikely...it seems reasonable...the likelihood is...there are probably...You're attempting to put forward a hypothesis with no fact behind it, building a house on shifting sand. Show me some evidence. Look down that wikipedia page at the section headlined "passive voice" and you'll see a pretty good description of your arguing style.

Anywhoooo... What logic hole? I'm saying that I believe it perfectly reasonable to suppose that the US military has the capability to fly into near-earth orbit and even to and from the moon (though not building huge skyscrapers on it, I accept that) using technology that is not public knowledge. It's not even like it's impossible given known technology! Your argument against this is "if they had, we'd have found out" and to then dismiss out of hand any possible pointers towards its existence. I'd say that that is pretty circular logic.

You aren't giving pointers towards its existence! If you gave any evidence, rather than just qualified yourself into a corner, I'd have something to debate with you at least. You've not given me any evidence to dismiss out of hand! And you said a lot more than "I believe it perfectly reasonable to suppose that the US military has the capability to fly into near-earth orbit and even to and from the moon", you said people who didn't believe the US had gone back there without our knowledge were stupid. The logic hole, as pointed out by Woyzeck, is this: the first time we went to the moon was done, at least in part, as a propaganda exercise. It was on every news source in the world, it was one of the top 5 news stories of the 20th century. If the US government, as you think, has been back to the Moon secretly, what do they have to benefit from doing it this way? As well as the extra money they'd have to spend on keeping it all secret, they're not getting any of the undoubtedly enormous publicity benefit.