Paid Members Dead Mike Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, Keith Houchen said:  And therein lies the rub. Whenever he backtracks in the future, he will say how it’s not the same as it was back then, so what’s even the point of a manifesto if you can simply get out of promises and commitments by shrugging your shoulders and saying the political equivalent of “Plans change” All of his pledges should come with an asterisk saying “Unless something happens, which it probably will”. And that’s going to be good enough for most people and I can’t blame them.  Plans should change if the circumstances do. What's the alternative? Labour made a huge mistake plucking that £28b figure out of thin air then having to renege on it when Truss worked her magic with her mini-budget. Whether we like it or not Labour are still tarnished with being economically reckless, 'there's no money left', so them wanting to demonstrate some fiscal prudence shouldn't be a surprise. Edited June 13 by Dead Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Just now, Dead Mike said: Plans should change if the circumstances do. What's the alternative? Manufacturing circumstances so you can renege on stuff you said to get elected. We are going to hear from Labour for the next 5 years what we heard from the tories in their first five years. “We desperately want to do that but due to the mess we’ve inherited from the previous government we are unable to do so” But yay red team!! We won!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 9 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: And therein lies the rub. Whenever he backtracks in the future, he will say how it’s not the same as it was back then, so what’s even the point of a manifesto if you can simply get out of promises and commitments by shrugging your shoulders and saying the political equivalent of “Plans change” All of his pledges should come with an asterisk saying “Unless something happens, which it probably will”. And that’s going to be good enough for most people and I can’t blame them.  I think he’s going to get a huge majority, followed by a massive drop in approval rating within a year. Thats a really dumb way of looking at things. Have we learned nothing about the Johnson era where that literally spunked our money up the wall with dodgy contracts and unfit PPE (and the Nightingale hospitals which cost hundreds of millions and were basically unused), before Lettice Truss completely tanked the economy? The alternative is the Torys saying they will reduce taxes (the ones that have gone up 14 times) and financial plans which are dubious. This isn't because I am a Starmer fanboy, just trying to look at things realistically and rationally. Turning round and not accepting the economy is fucked and their plan has been lies because they have had to backtrack because the money isn't there and they are trying to not bankrupt the country, is just foolish. Only one of 2 parties is going to get a majority, that's the unfortunate truth because of how the election system works, and i'd rather have a turncoat then what else we have on offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 12 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Manufacturing circumstances so you can renege on stuff you said to get elected. We are going to hear from Labour for the next 5 years what we heard from the tories in their first five years. “We desperately want to do that but due to the mess we’ve inherited from the previous government we are unable to do so”  Some of this will provably be true though. After the Brexit promises of 'sunlit uplands' failed to materialise I don't think there's as much of an appetite for fantasy promises as you think there is. Labour claiming they can just wave a magic wand isn't the move. There's nothing wrong with saying 'this is what we ultimately want but this is what we can have right now'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted June 13 Moderators Share Posted June 13 5 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said: Only one of 2 parties is going to get a majority, that's the unfortunate truth because of how the election system works, and i'd rather have a turncoat then what else we have on offer. This isn't true though, even within our election system, we've had Tory coalitions very recently with both the Lib Dems and the DUP. My ideal outcome is a Labour coalition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members FLips Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 28 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Yes, repeatedly. Starting with his lies to become leader and constantly since.  And therein lies the rub. Whenever he backtracks in the future, he will say how it’s not the same as it was back then, so what’s even the point of a manifesto if you can simply get out of promises and commitments by shrugging your shoulders and saying the political equivalent of “Plans change” All of his pledges should come with an asterisk saying “Unless something happens, which it probably will”. And that’s going to be good enough for most people and I can’t blame them.  I think he’s going to get a huge majority, followed by a massive drop in approval rating within a year. It should just be common sense that pledges in a manifesto might be subject to change based on what is happening in the world around us. That’s not to say I believe everything in it or that things might be promised with no intention to deliver. That being said you’re being overly dismissive of exactly how bad the last four years have been. If they weren’t eligible for a change in plans I don’t know what would be. This isn’t like he made those pledges and nothing of note has happened since, the entire world crumbled from a pandemic, a war broke out in Ukraine, there’s a currently active genocide, and the cost of everything has massively went up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said: Thats a really dumb way of looking at things Yeah, not believing a craven liar is going to stick to his word this time despite not doing so time and again and again and again is really dumb.  I’m not talking about crashing the economy or overspending. I’m saying that “Now is not the time” will be used for breaking pledges so often that it’ll be up there with “My father was a toolmaker”. And he’ll get away with it like he has gotten away with it constantly. 20 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said: and i'd rather have a turncoat then what else we have on offer. I’d rather have neither so I won’t be endorsing them with my vote.   13 minutes ago, Dead Mike said: There's nothing wrong with saying 'this is what we ultimately want but this is what we can have right now'. Yes, it’s absolutely the right strategy, let the others fight like rats in a sack and say you can steady the ship. That’s what the country wants and needs. It’s like (sorry Chest) shutting up shop when you’re two up with ten minutes to go and the other teams discipline has gone. It would be madness to rock that boat.  10 minutes ago, FLips said: This isn’t like he made those pledges and nothing of note has happened since And the pledges when he became leader? That was before anything of note. Reneging a day later on workers rights when business leaders told him they didn’t support them? Etc etc.  Yes things have changed massively, my point is he will always wheel out a plans change regardless of what’s happening in the world. Because he did so before the pandemic, before the Ukraine War and will do so again. Because he’s a liar who will say anything to get power. Edited June 13 by Keith Houchen Free Nelson Mandela Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BigJag Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 Why would anyone vote for such a charlatan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Just now, BigJag said: Why would anyone vote for such a charlatan? Because let’s be honest, he’s still better than what the tories have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BigJag Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 (edited) Oh. I've already eliminated those scumbags from having any chance of being voted in. Deader than dead. I can't see Starmer being an attractive candidate either. Are the other parties completely without a chance of forming a Government? Â Edited June 13 by BigJag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
organizedkaos Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 1 hour ago, Keith Houchen said: Manufacturing circumstances so you can renege on stuff you said to get elected. We are going to hear from Labour for the next 5 years what we heard from the tories in their first five years. First five years? James Cleverly was spouting this exact excuse (with added Covid) on News Agents a couple days back. They're still claiming people are worse off because of Labour and they really wanted to improve thing but instead had to make all the cuts I do appreciate the points about circumstances changing and so on. It's just that Labour supporters and politicians using the same rhetoric as the Tories to justify not achieving/actively renaging on pledges isn't exactly giving me much confidence on this new government we're most likely getting. Then again, my confidence isn't required. I'll be very happy if the next 5 years prove me wrong about what this version of Labour is going to be like. My biggest concern is this sort of "they're both as bad as each other, ineffectual and using the same words to justify it" is exactly the sort of compost in which Reform grows stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members FLips Posted June 13 Paid Members Share Posted June 13 2 minutes ago, BigJag said: Oh. I've already eliminated those scumbags from having any chance of being voted in. Deader than dead. I can't see Starmer being an attractive candidate either. Are the other parties completely without a chance of forming a Government? Â I'm no expert but based on every poll I've seen I'd be shocked. There needs to be a serious re-think of the way politics is presented as a country anyway. We're stuck in a two-party system with rarely any deviation from it and I would argue a big cause of that other than stubbornly stuck in their ways supporters of each party is that there's not a level playing field for every party. I know they do these 7-leader debates but they should all be that. We shouldn't have just Tory vs Labour debates where all the other parties are afterthoughts or it will never change the perception they're wasted votes or coalition backups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 2 minutes ago, organizedkaos said: First five years? James Cleverly was spouting this exact excuse (with added Covid) on News Agents a couple days back Haha so he was! Can’t wait to see the back of that prick. The absolute opposite of nominative determinism.  @BigJag Nah, the question is how big the majority will be. Greens have pragmatically said if they can get a handful in, they can further their agenda and build on that. Lib Dem’s will probably do better too, despite Davey trying to have his “Johnson stuck on a zip wire” moment at every turn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted June 13 Author Share Posted June 13 If I just look at the Labour manifesto in terms of my job and what sector I work in, some of the skills and training stuff is really encouraging. The apprenticeship Levy is a nightmare and to see that employers could access a new Levy for non apprenticeship courses or training is good, as that's not always the best option. Post 16 training and development needs completely ripping up as well so good to see. This isn't an endorsement of the whole thing or Starmers Labour but I was surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 14 minutes ago, organizedkaos said: My biggest concern is this sort of "they're both as bad as each other, ineffectual and using the same words to justify it" is exactly the sort of compost in which Reform grows stronger. Have you seen this, which exemplified your point? The sign off line is chefs kiss as the kids would say (five years ago) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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