Loki Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Quite surprised to see so may people down on Cena’s work, especially after his glorious “workrate” US title run.  As a heavyweight champ though he relied on having good heels to work with, and that’s where WWE really let him down.  Cena’s job (like Hogan before him) was to take a king beating with occasional mini shines before the big comeback and finisher.  It’s a style that has made more money and put more bums in seats than any other.  He had some right old shit to work with though.  Forget André, Bundy, Macho, DiBiase, Piper - he had JBL, Khali, Big Show, Ryback, Henry (bless him) - all sorts of guys who really didn’t help with the matches.  When he was in with really good heels, like Edge or Orto, Punk  or even  HHH things clicked better.  Also… he was on top for DECADES and wrestled everyone.  There’s going to be as many bad matches as good. I reckon Cena has another run in him in a few years, ala Rock, and I’m sure we’ll all be loving it when he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted April 4 Paid Members Share Posted April 4 I didn't catch his US title run - I'd pretty much stopped watching WWE at that point. Overall, I don't think he's bad - he's clearly one of the biggest main-event talents ever. He just rarely appealed to me style or character-wise, and at worst annoyed me a bit being constantly positioned at the top when I wanted to see other guys there. Even if I were still watching WWE, I wouldn't be invested enough in a last run. I'm sure he's sobbing into his wads of cash and fan mail knowing that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callum1993 Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 3 hours ago, Loki said: Quite surprised to see so may people down on Cena’s work, especially after his glorious “workrate” US title run.  As a heavyweight champ though he relied on having good heels to work with, and that’s where WWE really let him down.  Cena’s job (like Hogan before him) was to take a king beating with occasional mini shines before the big comeback and finisher.  It’s a style that has made more money and put more bums in seats than any other.  He had some right old shit to work with though.  Forget André, Bundy, Macho, DiBiase, Piper - he had JBL, Khali, Big Show, Ryback, Henry (bless him) - all sorts of guys who really didn’t help with the matches.  When he was in with really good heels, like Edge or Orto, Punk  or even  HHH things clicked better.  Also… he was on top for DECADES and wrestled everyone.  There’s going to be as many bad matches as good. I reckon Cena has another run in him in a few years, ala Rock, and I’m sure we’ll all be loving it when he does. Some really good points. Although I don’t think you know what a decade is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westlondonmist Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 I'm not a Cena fan, more because I could never get behind the character. I never really understood it, except with kids. I didn't like Hogan but I understand it. Â He was a bit like Hogan in that he bumped, then did a come back. It's very formulaic ala Hogan but if it gets people invested then fair enough. The style works, providing you know when to sell, when to come back etc. As has been mentioned his move set was weird, it didn't suit a big bastard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 4 minutes ago, westlondonmist said: As has been mentioned his move set was weird, it didn't suit a big bastard. Hogan’s moveset was a clothesline, a back rake and a legdrop.  And he was huge.  The point was that they looked like greek gods but then got punished to the point that the kids in the audience start crying and then they come back and the power of the audience fills them and they get the win.  The point being I guess that the style isn’t designed to appeal to smart wrestling fans, it’s designed to appeal to the kid in the nosebleeds whose Dad has just shelled out 100 dollars in merch. And to be honest I always thought the AA looked amazing particularly against big opponents, Cena would power them up there and then a big gulp of air and wallop.  That’s a power move, especially when he went into it from a mid air catch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bully Busick Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 I like Oku  See him tons at Wrestleforce locally and really impressed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted April 4 Paid Members Share Posted April 4 The biggest problem I had with Cena is that when he was at his hottest (initially), genuinely popular and already competitive with all the main event players like Angle, Taker and Lesnar already and beaten everyone on the Eddy/Benoit level, instead of pulling the trigger they gave him 12 months dicking around with the US title, which was a step down, and working guys beneath the level he’d already proven himself to be. He cooled off considerably, beat a crap champion to finally win the belt, and as the boos intensified it was usually too jarring to see him wrestling as the babyface despite people hating him. With a few exceptions where he was allowed to play up to it, like One Night Stand or MITB at the AllState, obviously. But I never thought he was an especially bad wrestler. The FU was naff, his STF usually looked like shit and the tackle tackle ducked clothesline sequence was awful, but in all the ways that mattered he was good enough to be where he got to. Sure, on occasion something ridiculous would happen, like his over the top invincible comeback against Nexus at SummerSlam 2010, but that’s on the boss and the agent. Cena was theoretically the best hero since Stone Cold and if his matches had played to cheers like they were meant to, nobody would ask if he was actually any good or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 3 minutes ago, air_raid said: The biggest problem I had with Cena is that when he was at his hottest (initially), genuinely popular and already competitive with all the main event players like Angle, Taker and Lesnar already and beaten everyone on the Eddy/Benoit level, instead of pulling the trigger they gave him 12 months dicking around with the US title, which was a step down, and working guys beneath the level he’d already proven himself to be. He cooled off considerably, beat a crap champion to finally win the belt, and as the boos intensified it was usually too jarring to see him wrestling as the babyface despite people hating him. With a few exceptions where he was allowed to play up to it, like One Night Stand or MITB at the AllState, obviously. But I never thought he was an especially bad wrestler. The FU was naff, his STF usually looked like shit and the tackle tackle ducked clothesline sequence was awful, but in all the ways that mattered he was good enough to be where he got to. Sure, on occasion something ridiculous would happen, like his over the top invincible comeback against Nexus at SummerSlam 2010, but that’s on the boss and the agent. Cena was theoretically the best hero since Stone Cold and if his matches had played to cheers like they were meant to, nobody would ask if he was actually any good or not. That's a really interesting point I hadn't thought about, but you're absolutely right. From about Survivor Series 2003 - WrestleMania XX he was hot with the entire audience. He had what was probably the most ready-jaded, hardcore WWE audience at the time in Madison Square garden cheering him on to win that U.S. title in unison. Then he just farted about with it for the rest of the year when Smackdown as a whole went into the absolute darkest of days. Cena/Booker T's best of seven (!) felt like something nobody wanted to see and on it went. I imagine one of the respect the biz dickheads backstage thought it'd be a great idea as a way for Cena to prove himself. Then long before Vince booked himself into a match with God, Cena gets stabbed by Jesus leading to a match at Armageddon. Cena/JBL should be a good sort of culture clash on paper - and the crowds were dying to see JBL lose the belt - but they were already watering down his character by that point and in the eyes of history as dictated by retrospective clips, he completely missed out on his first big title win moment by having a complete nothing of a TV match during one of the early WrestleManias where not having the main event was still seen as being shat on. There's a fun alternate history in subbing him in for Wrestling Hitler, having him win the 2004 Rumble, and punking it up against Triple H and Michaels whilst he was still hot. Even if Chavo had never gotten weird texts, that fella's run was a total bust anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted April 5 Paid Members Share Posted April 5 Or even if Cena had just been the way they went when Eddy decided he didn’t need the pressure of the title. Having beaten Big Show (whose value was already waning) Cena didn’t need to be dicking around with whichever Kenzo or Dupree, and at a time Angle and Lesnar were gone the brand needed new stars and neglected the one they’d already made. I don’t subscribe to them needing to build up JBL for 10 months so there was a strong heel to transition the belt onto John but if you do agree there needs to be a go-between (and I agree splitting the audience opposite Eddy would have been a bad move) - there are other ways. Have Eddy “injured” by JBL or have the dastardly Heyman strip him of the belt and have Cena beat JBL in a tournament final on the next PPV after Eddy goes out earlier (Mania IV, yes). Or even have JBL cost Cena the US title on TV, have Cena try to avenge it and cause Eddy to get bumped or take a DQ causing friction, and have Cena get a shot after Judgment Day - a 2 day title reign for JBL would have been better than letting the Dr Of Thuganomics go off the boil while you unwittingly sacrifice him in favour of the bloke you think you’re building up for him. If Cena spends the next half year turning back JBL then eventually even Eddy and Taker, he’s the real deal before you have to think about Mania 21. Which, thinking about who else was ready, could have been HHH vs Batista, Cena vs Orton and seriously, fuck Undertaker anyway. A point I forgot in my last post, the gradual dilution of the Thuganomics character which was really popular into generic shouty “Hustle Loyalty Respect” rah rah good guy really didn’t help grown ups cheer for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane O' Mac Version 2 Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 22 hours ago, LaGoosh said: My main issue with John Cena's style is that despite being a freakishly strong muscle man is that all his offence is weak as piss. Running bull dogs, second rope leg drops, flipping neck breakers....absolute crap. You're a beast John, do some goddamn power moves. Press Slam someone for the love of God! I feel like this comes down to the FU/AA being his established finisher. You can't have him doing all these crazy suplexes and powerbombs, then finish the match with a relatively weak fireman's carry slam. Maybe if he kept the move closer to the Death Valley Driver it was originally, he could sprinkle in more power stuff. As it is, he kinda needed the AA to be his one big display of power in a match- especially if wrestling a Big Show/Khali type. It's like, the impact of the actual move isn't that impressive, but your closing impression is "wow, look how he lifted them up! So strong!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarlettChad Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 When did people begin to see that Cena was gonna be THE guy? I wasn't on the newz sites at the time or message boards. Did people see him replacing brock even before brock left? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted April 5 Paid Members Share Posted April 5 6 minutes ago, TheScarlettChad said: When did people begin to see that Cena was gonna be THE guy? I wasn't on the newz sites at the time or message boards. Did people see him replacing brock even before brock left? I won't speak for fans but the company made that call somewhere around the time they realized Lesnar was leaving. The whole idea of the "class of 2002" from OVW was to replace Austin, Rock and Triple H with guys they could put in the driving seat for years to come. Lesnar was the one that they banked on being the standout compared to Cena, Orton and Batista. When they knew Lesnar wasn't going to sign a new deal, they decided that reliable John was the way to go ahead of Batista whose age suggested a more limited shelf life, and Orton who despite Dusty being really high on, was proving himself to be a bellend. Plus Steph was really high on him. According to Prichard he was in the conversation to win the belt when Eddy was sick of it but as noted previously, the consensus was that he'd get over better if they built a really strong heel up to transition the belt to him. The whole point of JBL was to create a big time baddie for Cena to beat. Even though he was just one of the Acolytes with - literally - a new hat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted April 5 Paid Members Share Posted April 5 one of the first Smackdown episodes written by Paul Heyman ended with Edge, Rey Mysterio and John Cena standing tall and being called the "future of Smackdown", maybe a month after Cena's debut. So he was being presented as a prospective top star from the beginning, and I vividly remember watching that episode and thinking, "oh wow, okay, this guy's one to watch, then". He had some rough patches after that - he didn't make a PPV card for months and was dicking around in a feud with Billy Kidman before the rapper gimmick came along, and even that gimmick was played for laughs at first, but his first title match against Brock Lesnar at Backlash '03 definitely felt like a statement of intent to test the waters with him at that level rather than just a filler defence for Brock. After that, it always felt like just a matter of time, and while Cena was still a heel he was (as odd as it feels now given how perceptions of him carried through most of his career) quite an internet darling and people were often calling for him to get a bigger push, from what I remember. I actually suspect that if Lesnar hadn't left, and if he had been able to weather the storm of a near-inevitable move to RAW and a feud with Triple H trying to undermine him at every turn, that the long-term plan would have been for Lesnar and Cena to be generational rivals once they recognised Cena at that level - and most likely with Brock as the babyface and Cena as the heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Him wrestling Brock for the title at Backlash 2003 is like some mad temporary aberration from another timeline. The first time I personally got the sense he was headed straight to the top of the Smackdown brand before long was that little forgotten gem he had with Angle at No Mercy 2003. One of the first examples of the crowd split chanting for the heel. I was 12 at the time and thought it was cool how Taz openly acknowledged that on commentary with that "That's awesome, you come here, you pay your money, you do what you want" line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted April 5 Paid Members Share Posted April 5 (edited) Having just revisited the Mania XX thread from these here parts, unfortunately I have no insights as to whether posters here were aware there were plans on the drawing board for Cena to make main event. Most reactions were to give the match low star ratings (in actual stars, LOL) and decry that the "wrestling" was crap but that it was still entertaining (the fuck?) or that the crowd made it good, lament than the FU was still a crap finish, or a remarkable number of people posting that they hoped Cena would be defending the title on TV more often than Show had. Oh, and a guest called Niall saying "Big Show kicking out of the FU has just made this a bit gay" - sign of the times. Best post in the thread was @Supremo hoping the Cruiserweight open would go on first and get 20 minutes. Edited April 5 by air_raid Dental plan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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