UFC Fight Night: Overeem vs Arlovski - May 8th

[lambyUK]

The thing that strikes me the most with Rashad is the size he's lost due to injuries.

 

He was out so long with his ACL nightmare, that you just need to compare to the size of thighs to say when he faced Rampage to what they are now.

 

I know it sounds odd, but the size and power of his legs is partially what made him wrestling so effective. He was a beast.

 

Injuries really have ravaged him.

 

Khabib on the other hand looked phenomenal. Despite his opponent that guy is absolutely terrifying.

 

Dodson too was incredible. I stand by what I said in the build up, his speed and power will potentially give fits to the bigger bantamweights. I don't think they will see him coming.

[ElCece]

Am i getting to far ahead of myself thiking Khabib would beat RDA again? I would really fancy him going 2-0 over RDA

[lambyUK]

Am i getting to far ahead of myself thiking Khabib would beat RDA again? I would really fancy him going 2-0 over RDA

I don't think you're getting ahead if you even said Khabib is unbeatable at 155llbs.

 

I think he's just another class above anyone, including RDA.

[Bus Surfer]

Wow Rashad needs to hang them up now. He looked a shell of his former self there. Glover just walked him down and there was nothing Evans could do. He looked very small at that weight. If he is gonna continue, do we think he finally gives 185 a shot?

 

Great to see Khabib back. Props to Horcher for toughing it out. Khabib beats RDA again all day, imo.

 

Torres/Namajunas was good, but not like their first go around.

 

Chuffed for Chiesa too. Thought it was gonna be a long night for him when those leg kicks started to land. You can't write off his toughness and grit.

[wandshogun09]

Sad seeing Rashad get walked through like that. Only saving grace was at least it was at the hands of Glover, who probably closest rivals JDS for the 'nicest guy in MMA' title. You just can't see a way back from this for Rashad, can you? Sure, he could fight a Shogun and probably win. But what does that even mean in 2016? And that's depressing as a fan of Rashad and Shogun. That era is dead though. Time doesn't stand still, especially in a sport like MMA.

 

Rashad will be 37 this year. He hasn't won a fight since 2013. He's 2-4 in his last 6. He's only fought twice in the last 2 1/2 years and he lost both of those fights in the most depressing way possible if you're a fan of his - a dull points loss to Bader where he looked gunshy, lethargic and basically shot. Then he gets walked down and put out in less than two minutes by Glover. On top of that, he's tiny for today's 205 division. He was fine in the days when the top of 205 consisted of Shogun, Machida and Rampage. But now your top 205ers are considerably bigger. As a wrestler, that's not good for Rashad. And, as he's never expressed a desire to drop to 185, I'm not sure middleweight is something he's particularly interested in at this point. It's probably too late for that anyway. And as well as all that, he's been absolutely fucked dry by injuries over the last few years. He really is a shell of the fast and explosive wrestler he was. And his injuries have meant that, even when he's had bright spots (like crushing Chael Sonnen), he hasn't been able to build any momentum off them because his body is breaking down constantly.

 

I'm hoping that he calls it a day now. There are fights I wouldn't mind seeing. A drop to 185 and a fight with Anderson or rematches with Machida or Bisping, I'd watch them. But I'd rather he just stop now. He's got other options within the sport. He's got the FOX analyst gig, which he's great at. He's likeable and charismatic as a pundit and he talks sense. I think he could be great in a colour commentary role if given the chance as well. He'd make a great coach if he's interested in going that route. He was fantastic as a coach on TUF and he's one of the leaders of the Blackzilians camp and has formed strong ties to Vitor Belfort, Rumble Johnson, Eddie Alvarez and especially Tyrone Spong. Basically, there's plenty he can still do and offer within the sport which doesn't involve him continuing to destroy his body in training camps and taking heavy shots off bigger guys in fights anymore. It'd be a shame to see a guy as intelligent as Rashad become another sad figure who took a fight or ten too many and ended up a slurring mess.

 

Daz - sorry for raising your hopes for Rose vs Tecia 2. I did try to stress that I wasn't expecting the rematch to meet or surpass the first fight. But I can't help overhyping fights I'm so excited about. I actually really enjoyed the fight last night but it wasn't a patch on their Invicta classic.

 

Khabib did what Khabib does. Fucking hell I felt sorry for Horcher. Poor cunt had no idea what he'd gotten himself into, did he? He looked like he thought he was in a remake of Jaws at times. Just ragdolled about and put through the meat grinder. It must be a right miserable experience being locked in a cage with Khabib.

 

Michael Chiesa is a fucking god. Love watching that bastard fight. His style is so fun to watch. He's kind of like a grappling equivalent of a Wonderboy Thompson for me. His grappling is so attacking and overwhelming. Dariush is a proper grappler as well. Tapping that guy is big. I'd love to see Chiesa get his wish with the Ferguson fight. That'd be a hell of a scrap. And a clear as day babyface vs heel matchup as well. Got a feeling Ferguson won't be chasing rebooking that Khabib fight after last night so Chiesa vs Ferguson might be in the pipeline.

 

Dodson looked incredible. I'd actually love to see Dodson vs John Lineker at some point. Two flyweights now at bantamweight. Both heavy hitters but undersized for 135. Would be a fun one.

 

Oh and I hope that Glover vs Rumble fight happens.

[jimufctna24]

I got the results spoilt for me. Had a brain-fade when I woke up.

 

Kinda glad I did now. I really don't have a desire to watch a shot Rashad get blasted out in a round. I didn't enjoy watching him lose to mid-tier talent like Bader, who he would have lit up in his prime. I also agree with Wand's point about how 205lbs has changed, and left Rashad in no man's land. 

 

Credit to Glover though. Always had a soft spot for him. 

[wandshogun09]

Emotional post-fight interview with Rashad here;

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=l4ygSYo1PCQ

 

He says he wants to fight again there but you can see at the end there, it seems like it's finally dawning on him that it's probably over. The way his voice starts cracking when he's talking about "fighting used to come so natural..." or whatever. It just sounds like a man who knows the game's up. Sad thing is, give it a week and he'll do what all fighters do and be telling himself he 'just got caught' - that old one - and 'it can happen to anyone in this sport'. I'm fully expecting we'll see Rashad vs Shogun before the year's out, after Shogun sadly loses to fucking Corey Anderson next month. Either that or Rashad, or Shogun, or both, will get injured AGAIN and disappear for a few months before trying their 93rd ill-advised comeback.

[jimufctna24]

It's hard not to feel for him after watching that. Somewhere in a parrallel universe, Rashad is wrapping up his career as a long-standing in a sparkling 195lbs weightclass (probably along with Machida and Shogun). 

 

Rashad vs Shogun is a fight I've really wanted to see over the years. Now, I'd happily skip it, in favour of both men retiring. They've got nothing to prove. Plus, as stated. Rashad could get a cushy job in other areas of MMA (Shogun probably could as well)

[wandshogun09]

Plus, as stated. Rashad could get a cushy job in other areas of MMA (Shogun probably could as well)

See, I'm not so sure where Shogun fits in with that. At least with Rashad there's an obvious post-retirement career in broadcasting, fight analysis and possibly commentating and coaching. He's already kind of into most of that stuff already. With Shogun, he's not an obvious choice to do commentary/fight analysis, even on the Brazilian TV side of things. He's not much of a talker or big personality. He's always just been a pure fighter.

 

That's the thing, I guess, it's easy for us to call for these guys to retire from the comfort of sitting on our settees in our livingrooms. But for a lot of fighters, they got in young and it's all they know. Most of them aren't paid life changing money either so it's not like them retiring means they'll even be comfortable financially. Shogun should have made a fair bit of money over the years, you'd think. Hopefully he's invested it wisely, or saved like fuck. But who knows?

 

Shogun's just sad to watch now. Way more than Wandy was at the end. Wanderlei was always Wanderlei. He might've slowed down later in his career but he could still go. His last fight with Brian Stann proved that. Shogun of 2016 bares no resemblance to the Shogun of 2005 when he won the Pride GP, 2010 when he KO'd Machida to win the UFC title or even 2011/12 when he had those incredible wars with Hendo and Vera. I was watching Pride 33 the other night and seeing Shogun vs Overeem 2, it was like a totally different fighter to the guy who lunged at OSP and got decked in seconds, or even the timid and cautious Shogun who barely outpointed an on his last legs Little Nog last August.

 

I've got a mate at work who's just got into MMA over the last year or so. I remember last year when he was just getting into it he asked me who my favourite fighters were and I said Shogun and Big Nog (among others). UFC 190 had just happened and he'd watched it. All he'd seen was Shogun squeaking by Little Nog after nearly getting finished himself, and Big Nog looking shot to shit and getting shown up by Struve. So of course, me saying Shogun and Big Nog were two of my favourite fighters baffled him. I had to get a Shogun highlight up to show him. It's really like night and day watching those old clips of a young, vibrant, healthy and creative Shogun and then comparing it to the battleworn, plodding, doctor's note on legs he is today. It's a bit like watching an old video of your dog as a lively puppy jumping around and playing fetch in the park, then watching the same dog now hobbling into the room and being unable to jump up on the settee.

[ColinBollocks]

Christ, I felt pretty sad for Evans after the fight but that interview has ruined my night. Heartbreaking stuff. Before watching that interview I was going to post about maybe if he makes some adjustments and what not maybe just maybe he can recapture something, but it is fairly clear he knows he's a man out of time.

 

Khabib is still real cowboy, which is forever pleasing. JDA/Khabib in New York sounds about right.

[ElCece]

That interview is hard to watch. I've never been a big fan of Evans either but its still shotty viewing

That interview is hard to watch. I've never been a big fan of Evans either but its still shotty viewing

[jimufctna24]

 

Plus, as stated. Rashad could get a cushy job in other areas of MMA (Shogun probably could as well)

See, I'm not so sure where Shogun fits in with that. At least with Rashad there's an obvious post-retirement career in broadcasting, fight analysis and possibly commentating and coaching. He's already kind of into most of that stuff already. With Shogun, he's not an obvious choice to do commentary/fight analysis, even on the Brazilian TV side of things. He's not m

much of a talker or big personality. He's always just been a pure fighter.

 

I was referring more to coaching. As for being a pundit, I wouldn't rule Shogun out. English isn't his mother tongue, it's possible he would play well to his native audience in Brazil. Cruz is not the biggest personality in MMA, but he can talk well as a pundit.

 

For me, Shogun was at his absolute peak in 2005. Even though Liddel and GSP had banner years, it was Shogun who won the fighter of the year award with Sherdog, and no one batted an eyelid. He was something else that year. 

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, 2005 was the year I got properly into MMA after dabbling in watching bits and pieces here and there on Bravo and stuff. Obviously we never got Pride over here but my mate was big into MMA at the time (he was an even bigger MMA nerd than me back then) and he followed Pride online and showed me my first clips of Shogun. The GP had either just happened or was still halfway through (it ran from April to August that year) and I think the first thing I saw of Shogun was him completely decimating Rampage. I'd already seen a few Wandy fights at this point and he was my favourite, but Shogun was like a faster, flashier and in some ways even more wild and aggressive version of Wand. He instantly became my other favourite. He went into that GP as just an untested prospect. He came out of it looking like the fucking Don.

 

His 2009/10 run was pretty great as well. He started 2009 with that embarrassingly shit showing against Coleman, which he won but looked so bad people thought he was pretty much done as a top fighter. Then Shogun was put in with Chuck Liddell in a fight that was supposed to be a 'getting back on track' fight for Chuck against an off-form Shogun. Shogun KO'd him in a round. Then they 'fed' him to a Machida who was not only undefeated but practically untouched and had just KO'd Rashad to win the title. Shogun was supposed to be an easy first title defence for Machida but it ended up going the distance in a fight the judges scored for Machida but most thought Shogun was robbed in. And by May 2010 he was the UFC light heavyweight champion, having solved the Machida puzzle and became the first man to not only beat him but knock him out in the rematch.

 

 

I know people always make excuses for their favourites. The 'motivated BJ Penn' defence etc. But take away the injuries and I genuinely think Shogun would've cleaned up the UFC 205 division between 2007 and 2011. I certainly don't think he'd have the loss to Forrest Griffin on his record, and we saw what happened in the rematch. The only one around then who I think would've given a fully healthy Shogun fits would be Rashad. Wrestling was always Shogun's weak point and Rashad was the daddy as far as wrestling went at 205 back then. Shogun vs Randy Couture around 2009 would've been interesting actually as well. I think Shogun vs Hendo would've always been a war no matter when it happened.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I'm realistic. Once Jon Jones entered the title picture in 2011, it would've been over for any version of Shogun no matter what. Even no injuries, fully fit Shogun wouldn't have much for Jones. And once it started to become a bigger boys division, he'd have struggled. But everything Shogun was able to accomplish post-2006 (when his injuries started piling up) is damaged goods Shogun. Especially 2009 onwards after the 18 months out and destroying his knee twice. The fact he was able to come back from that and take Machida's '0' and the title is quite amazing. Imagine what he'd have been able to do if he never had all those injuries fucking with his momentum, movement, agility, training etc.

 

The two biggest things that fucked Shogun were injuries and, later in his career, him keep chopping and changing his training camps/gyms/coaching staff. He's had about as much stability from his gammy knees over the last few years as he's had in his training.

[jimufctna24]

If he was injury free, I think it's perfectly reasonable to state that Shogun would have dominated 205lbs between 2005-2010 (and in a unified field).  Liddell would have been easy pickings for a fresh Shogun from 2007 onward. Rampage might have caused him a bit of trouble when he was at his 2007 best, but he was far too fragile outside the cage for me to have any faith in him. Hendo might have been an issue, but I can see Shogun edging him during this period. As demonstrated in 2009/2010, he matched up well with Machida. 

 

My first card was UFC 51. Like most, I had watched bits and bobs on Bravo beforehand. I only viewed Shogun first-hand through the Pride highlight shows they aired on Men and Motors, and stuff I got on copy. I knew the score though. By the winter of 2005, it was generally accepted that Shogun had surpassed Wanderlei. The Liddell vs Wanderlei debate was still focal though, so how a prime Liddell (2005/2006) matched up against Shogun wasn't discussed as much as some might think. 

 

A lot of great fighters careers are patchy. Shogun and Penn are prime examples. However, the lows - while meaningful - shouldn't distract from the highs. At their peaks, both were something very special by any standard.

[herbie747]

That Rashad interview is heartbreaking. Always loved the guy - rooted for him against that bell-end Rampage too. Poor guy, but time is never your friend in pro sports.