The actual proper Wrestlemania 29 Thread

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Personally, from The Rock's matches, he looked very, very good against The Miz and R-Truth in the tag match at Survivor Series 2011, and Punk v Rock 2, but average in Rock v Cena 1 and Punk v Rock 1, and awful in Rock v Cena 2.

First match he tore his hamstring and the second he tore his abdominal muscles. Also it they were babyface vs babyface matches. The psychology is all to cock at the best of times.

[Arch Stanton]

How, convincingly, Cena could lose to a man twice his age, half his size, and crippled with injury would stretch the bounds of credibility.

Stretching the bounds of your credibility with those exaggerations.

[Mike Castle]

How, convincingly, Cena could lose to a man twice his age, half his size, and crippled with injury would stretch the bounds of credibility.

Stretching the bounds of your credibility with those exaggerations.

After both posts in the Raw thread and this one, I'd say any chance of credibility is close to nil.

[FrankCastle]

How, convincingly, Cena could lose to a man twice his age, half his size, and crippled with injury would stretch the bounds of credibility.

Stretching the bounds of your credibility with those exaggerations.

 

Fair comment, but while I may have exaggerated, I still think that it would be a mismatch, and if Taker were to go over, then it would just look ridiculous.

 

How, convincingly, Cena could lose to a man twice his age, half his size, and crippled with injury would stretch the bounds of credibility.

Stretching the bounds of your credibility with those exaggerations.

After both posts in the Raw thread and this one, I'd say any chance of credibility is close to nil.

 

Love you too. ;-)

[NEWM]

Rock's kind of turned into a contemporary, healthier Hulk Hogan in his matches in the last couple of years. He's a megastar who knows just what to do to get over, but he's fucking buggered a lot of the time, and lacks the vigour he had in his younger days. Absolutely worthy of wrestling in a Main Event because the real stars will always get their shite over when it counts jike with Hogan/Sting. I thought Rock/Cena was killed by a surprisingly terrible end 5 minutes (save for the excellent dummy spot that should have been the finish), but the remainder was going fine till then. However, the finish reversal portion was really bad. Like, really, really bad. 10 times worse than Kurt Angle on his worst day.

[air_raid]

Similarly, I don't want to see The Streak broken by Cena, who doesn't need it. He's never, ever going to turn heel, so there's no filip for him or way to use it as a turning point.

 

That's a bullshit reason to not do something. It doesn't matter whether anyone "needs" anything or not, it only matters if an action can lead to a consequence of the company making money. Cena didn't "need" to wrestle or beat The Rock either, but that match helped break records with WM28 (about 300,000 more people bought it than 27) and I bet 29 has done OK too.

 

I'm sure I've outlined the scenario a half dozen times, but if the company thinks that having Cena smash Taker with a chair 37 times and pin him to end the wildly popular "Streak" to turn him heel, will result in viewing figures going up for Raw and fresh programs pitting Cena against the babyfaces that need to replace him when he hangs them up (he's been talking about only having a couple of years left) i.e. fresh-seeming main events for PPVs, the net result being making a shit ton of money and building stronger babyface main eventers for post-Cena - then they could do it.

 

What's the alternative? Cena stays his annoying face character until he finishes up with nobody in a decent spot to replace him as top babyface? Undertaker retires with Streak intact? That would be pointless, you can't make money off a Streak of 22-0 or 23-0 once he's not wrestling any more and helping bring in the buyrate. They already sold a 20-0 DVD set, they won't do another. Taker isn't personally bothered about losing it, and if the company believes ending the Streak in the scenario above might make them more money than leaving it be, then that's the direction they should take. Business over sentiment, the hell with anyone "needing" it.

 

If somebody's career "needs" them to beat The Undertaker at WrestleMania, they have no business being in the ring with him at WrestleMania to begin with.

[FrankCastle]

Similarly, I don't want to see The Streak broken by Cena, who doesn't need it. He's never, ever going to turn heel, so there's no filip for him or way to use it as a turning point.

 

That's a bullshit reason to not do something. It doesn't matter whether anyone "needs" anything or not, it only matters if an action can lead to a consequence of the company making money. Cena didn't "need" to wrestle or beat The Rock either, but that match helped break records with WM28 (about 300,000 more people bought it than 27) and I bet 29 has done OK too.

 

I'm sure I've outlined the scenario a half dozen times, but if the company thinks that having Cena smash Taker with a chair 37 times and pin him to end the wildly popular "Streak" to turn him heel, will result in viewing figures going up for Raw and fresh programs pitting Cena against the babyfaces that need to replace him when he hangs them up (he's been talking about only having a couple of years left) i.e. fresh-seeming main events for PPVs, the net result being making a shit ton of money and building stronger babyface main eventers for post-Cena - then they could do it.

 

What's the alternative? Cena stays his annoying face character until he finishes up with nobody in a decent spot to replace him as top babyface? Undertaker retires with Streak intact? That would be pointless, you can't make money off a Streak of 22-0 or 23-0 once he's not wrestling any more and helping bring in the buyrate. They already sold a 20-0 DVD set, they won't do another. Taker isn't personally bothered about losing it, and if the company believes ending the Streak in the scenario above might make them more money than leaving it be, then that's the direction they should take. Business over sentiment, the hell with anyone "needing" it.

 

If somebody's career "needs" them to beat The Undertaker at WrestleMania, they have no business being in the ring with him at WrestleMania to begin with.

 

With respect, as I said in my post, I can see the business reasons for doing so. I would like nothing better than to shake things up, and have Cena turn heel, creating new feuds and ensuring his character's longevity. However, because of the business side of it, he will never turn heel as long as Vince feels he can make money out of him, so why should he be the one to break The Streak?

 

Perhaps I should clarify, when I said he doesn't "need" it, I think I should say "he wouldn't benefit from it in the same way someone else would". I really don;t want to see him beat Taker then go back to the same old character that he is now, because to me, in my own personal view, it would mean the whole legacy of the Undertaker would be for nought. Nothing would change for Cena in beating The Undertaker.

 

Consider a heel who is on the cusp of becoming someone who could be remembered as an all time great, and you may criticise me for saying it, or being a mark, but I would suggest CM Punk. If Punk had beaten the Undertaker, clean, it would have turned him from being a cool anti hero into someone people genuinely hated. To me, things like stealing the urn are "cheap heat" that gets him short term boos. Beating Taker, and backing up his boats, would be something, married with his title reign, that he could then use to claim he was one of the greats. He would have genuine reason to call out anyone in the locker room and say that he was better than them, because of what he had just achieved.

 

Again, it's my own opinion, while I accept you may disagree, I honestly think that ending The Streak has to mean something for the wrestler that does it. To me, Cena being that wrestler wouldn't change Cena's career, as I believe he, and WWE, wouldn't use it as a way to enhance his character.

[NEWM]

We've advanced so far beyond the days were people would offer your Wade Barrett's or Sheamus' as the "This will push that guy over the top" sort of thing you're on about with Punk (or anybody else), there though. Wrestlemania 21, or at a push, 24 (if Edge had actually still been unbeaten) were the last chances to take a guy who was already a superstar, and attempt to use the Undertaker's streak to put them into the real elite. The HBK and HHH matches took the streak and the overall legacy of the Undertaker's Wrestlemania story to a completely different planet than it was before.

 

To me, Raid's got it nailed with the Cena thing. If, and it's a huge if, an enormously devastating heel turn by Cena as he breaks the streak could see WWE make forty hundred million quid a year for the next ten years, then it's totally worth doing. You may beg to differ, but Punk is simply not worth that. Yeah, he can dine out on it a lot, but he would get no more mileage than he gets now off the long reign: he's got his "I beat Stone Cold and the Rock in the same night" line with that title reign, and he's got it forever. And that's as high as Punk can ever hope to get to, and it should serve him well.

 

In today's climate, there is positively nobody left apart from John Cena who would ever be a convincing streak-ender, and it's fine like that. IMO, short of a guy catching fire later this year who is on a par with Steve Austin in the run up to Mania 14 (which is not going to happen, let's face it), there is nobody up and down that roster who you could argue for where beating Taker has more benefits than negatives. Okay, maybe Fandango, but nobody else.

[air_raid]

If Punk had beaten the Undertaker, clean, it would have turned him from being a cool anti hero into someone people genuinely hated. To me, things like stealing the urn are "cheap heat" that gets him short term boos. Beating Taker, and backing up his boats, would be something, married with his title reign, that he could then use to claim he was one of the greats. He would have genuine reason to call out anyone in the locker room and say that he was better than them, because of what he had just achieved.

 

But if we're accepting that he's already getting cheers from the fat bearded Rancid-listening hockey shirt-wearing Kevin Smith-wannabe ROH refugee alternative lifestyle "non-conformist" collective - you know, that cheered like mental when they thought he'd survived The Rock at the Rumble - then surely to God they'd throw parties in the street if he beat Taker and be even more vocal when they turn up as a pack to Raw in their town? All not conforming together in their MITB'11 white (albeit greying) Best In The World shirts that reek of two years worth of sweat, all rushing out to get "20" and "1" tattooed on their arse cheeks. I believe it would exacerbate Punk's cool heel/"our hero" effect, not reverse it.

 

At least with Cena you'd give the people who boo him already ANOTHER reason to boo him, and now you WANT people to boo. Instead of just booing because they think (rightly or wrongly) that he's shit and/or overpushed and overprotected, they can boo because he ended The Streak and he didn't deserve it/didn't "need it"/The Streak should never have ended damn it! Then there might finally be parity between the reaction the company desires for Cena state to state and coast to coast, and the reaction he gets. It's been so awkward for long periods watching the man act like a babyface and be pushed as everyone's hero while large portions of some crowds clearly want him to fuck off. USE THAT. I'd liken it to "Rocky Sucks" and what happened when they used that as an advantage, but the comparison doesn't hold up since they didn't continue to force bland smiley hand slappy super rookie Rocky Maivia down our throats until he'd won the WWE title 11 fucking times. As for "never turning heel", I watched this years Mania with four lads that thought Cena would turn heel on Rocky so that he could have a year build of transforming into Megatwat to get him ready for Taker next year, and from what I've read in a few threads on here, they weren't the only ones expecting Cena to turn either at 'Mania or Raw the next night. The winds of change seem to be blowing in terms of that particular opinion.

 

Wrestlemania 21, or at a push, 24 (if Edge had actually still been unbeaten) were the last chances to take a guy who was already a superstar, and attempt to use the Undertaker's streak to put them into the real elite.

 

Well, they fucking had me fooled with that one too. Orton had been put on the map, but had needed the heel turn to revitalize him, and beating Taker would have been rehabilitation complete. I honestly thought they were going to run with that, and have a summer of Orton pursuing Big Dave on Raw with Randy right back up there expected to win the title back once Batista had a decent run, rather than wait nearly 3 years until Orton was finally ready to be a champion again. Plus, I genuinely thought Taker was winding down considering they'd just rendered him incapable of beating JBL and then saddled him with Heidenreich. I maintain to this day that had Randy not injured his shoulder and they knew he would need the surgery after 'Mania, that he'd have won that match.

 

Yeah, he can dine out on it a lot, but he would get no more mileage than he gets now off the long reign: he's got his "I beat Stone Cold and the Rock in the same night" line with that title reign, and he's got it forever. And that's as high as Punk can ever hope to get to, and it should serve him well.

 

That's the best comparison I've heard in ages for Punk : he's this decade's Jericho. Chris can say he was the first undisputed champion all he wants, but it still doesn't put him in the top bracket, and neither does 434 days for CM Punk.

 

I'd put money on it that either John Cena breaks The Streak or nobody does. And I'm leaning strongly towards the former.

[UK Kat Von D]

Air Raid that post was a real struggle to read. The worst of all the "insult fans I don't like because it turns my opinion into fact" posts which seem popular at the moment

[Vamp]

To be fair it struck me watching WrestleMania that while the paying crowd has the right to cheer and boo whoever they want, they actually kind of put me off the product at times. Sometimes it's fun, I actually like the Cena vs. Crowd thing because to me it strengthens Cena as the ultimate hero (more on that to follow), and I've seen a clip of the dancing from RAW and that looks fun, but then there was a bit during the Trips/Brock match when one section started chanting "break his arm", which actually rather took me out of it. So as much as I'm okay with people yelling whatever they want, and as much as its sometimes entertaining, it's hard not to insult them when they ruin your entertainment of something by being 'too cool for school'. It's frustrating. In Fandango's case they've probably put him over. It strikes me that a lot of the time the intention is to put themselves over. And quite frankly I don't give a shit about them.

 

I'm not sure I'd turn Cena heel. To me Cena's the most fucking compelling character whenever I tune in (admittedly I barely watch these days) and the crowd reaction both helps with that and is a direct response of his great performance and character. I don't think I'm interested in Cena the heel. I don't think the fans who jeer him now and request a heel turn as if that's the go to solution for everything they don't like would be as interested in that as they are invested in him now. Cena's the ultimate hero, the kids love him because he's this impossible super hero who takes a bullying each and every night and it doesn't even phase him, he just goes on and wins, those adults who hate him hate him because he's unflappable, he's what they would have loved as children but have become too cynical to believe in anymore (that's the most common complaint after all, that he's been the same character all this time, that he's not realistic, that he's not edgy, etc.), the other adult fans who love Cena love him because he's what, on some level, we all wish we could be, on the one hand an innocent man-child who ignores what everyone tells him he should be like and stays who the hell he wants to be and on the other hand he's not the innocent he projects, he's hated for no reason of his own and that's got to get to him but he just keeps going. He's got all that going for him. All of that depth to the Cena character is a culmination of a lot, it wasn't designed, it grew, between audience, performer and WWE stubbornness. It's hard to get that level of depth. Its why Cena is more over than The Rock, which is exactly what happened in that 'Mania main event. The crowd didn't give a fuck about The Rock, they cared about Cena. Part of the reason he creates that big match atmosphere is because of all this and because of that compelling thought at the back of our heads that one day that character has to snap, because that's what happens in wrestling, will it be today? That's part of the hook for me. Once you turn him heel that's gone. In fact one you turn him heel all of that depth is gone, and you'll never get it back. Maybe people will care about it, but at the moment people are going to shows to interact with that character, I've got a person on my Facebook who I used to go to school with constantly yammering on about how he hates Cena and how he's boring, but he isn't bored, not in the slightest, he's compelled by it, he watches the shows and chats about them constantly and it's mostly about Cena. Cena's the talking point. It's part of the reason Punk's character grew to where it did, because Cena represents the WWE and Punk's the complete opposite. Has there ever been a talking point in wrestling that's been talked about so much for so long? And if he's the most over character, which he is by miles, I'm not sure the streak makes much difference. It might add another layer to it I suppose. Wrestling should be the most simplest thing in the world. It should be. Wrestling's a medium that simply doesn't allow much depth. Cena has a staggering amount of depth and for some reason it just works. I'd be buggered if I'd change it to be honest.

[air_raid]

Air Raid that post was a real struggle to read. The worst of all the "insult fans I don't like because it turns my opinion into fact" posts which seem popular at the moment

 

That's fine. Ignore the salient points about the business rationale, crowd reactions and booking for the future, the respectve values of turning Cena heel and/or ending The Streak (that made up most of my post) and neglect to contribute to the conversation yourself. I love watching CM Punk, but he's not the be-all and end all.

 

Admit it, if I hadn't criticized counter-culture and mentioned tattoos, you wouldn't have piped up at all.

[ShortOrderCook]

Cracking few posts from Air_Raid, NEWM and Vamp there. The Punk boasting comparison to Jerichos Undisputed title win and beating Rock and Austin on the same night is something that occurred to me with Frank Castles point on if Punk beat the streak. That's an entirely shit reason and wouldn't really achieve much of anything. Did having that claim really do anything for Jericho? The idea that ending the streak has to be used to 'make' somebody isn't the case and as others usually mention is a risky chance to take for something that has grown to something as huge and as special as it is now. Years ago Ken Kennedy may have been considered for example, imagine that horror. Although if Ryback was to be handled well and really take off over the next 12 months though, he could potentially be worthy. Something involving Cena could be suitably earth shattering for sure though.

 

But I completely agree with Vamps excellent assessment of Cena above. The idea that Cena hasn't changed or evolved his act in 7 or so years is crazy. He's the most naturally, organically, truest evolved character on the show by a considerable margin. Possibly ever. The closest thing to his evolution being so true to his character and evolution I think would be Bret Hart in 1997, but I think it may even be better than that. I massively commend WWE on their handling of the WWE to Cena and his character for so long, despite the negativity that has been met with from some circles and not jumping the shark with a silly, nonsensical heel turn at some point somewhere. That they haven't has strengthened Cenas character and its main principles massively. And it makes for a magnificent top babyface. Over the last few years, I've realised that and it's all come together and began to make sense. Cenas story and evolution is a fantastic, compelling one. Far, far from boring.

 

I was thinking about this the other day, but I think Cena was actually always the natural progression of the next babyface following on from the Hogan era and the attitude era and when you think about that and fans reactions its really quite fascinating and again, I commend WWE for what they've done with it and allowing such a natural growth to it, rather than trying to force an opinion.

[UK Kat Von D]

Air Raid that post was a real struggle to read. The worst of all the "insult fans I don't like because it turns my opinion into fact" posts which seem popular at the moment

 

That's fine. Ignore the salient points about the business rationale, crowd reactions and booking for the future, the respectve values of turning Cena heel and/or ending The Streak (that made up most of my post) and neglect to contribute to the conversation yourself. I love watching CM Punk, but he's not the be-all and end all.

 

Admit it, if I hadn't criticized counter-culture and mentioned tattoos, you wouldn't have piped up at all.

 

I ignored the points you made because I didn't have an issue with anything you said, it was the way you said it. Came across as more like wanting to have digs at other people and it detracted from your point.

 

But if we're accepting that he's already getting cheers from the fat bearded Rancid-listening hockey shirt-wearing Kevin Smith-wannabe ROH refugee alternative lifestyle "non-conformist" collective - you know, that cheered like mental when they thought he'd survived The Rock at the Rumble - then surely to God they'd throw parties in the street if he beat Taker and be even more vocal when they turn up as a pack to Raw in their town? All not conforming together in their MITB'11 white (albeit greying) Best In The World shirts that reek of two years worth of sweat, all rushing out to get "20" and "1" tattooed on their arse cheeks. I believe it would exacerbate Punk's cool heel/"our hero" effect, not reverse it.

 

Could have very easily be said with

 

I believe it would exacerbate Punk's cool heel/"our hero" effect, not reverse it.

 

You really can't justify the amount you had to insult other people before getting to this. One or two digs can be funny, but this over kill.

[Retro Red]

But if we're accepting that he's already getting cheers from the fat bearded Rancid-listening hockey shirt-wearing Kevin Smith-wannabe ROH refugee alternative lifestyle "non-conformist" collective - you know, that cheered like mental when they thought he'd survived The Rock at the Rumble - then surely to God they'd throw parties in the street if he beat Taker and be even more vocal when they turn up as a pack to Raw in their town? All not conforming together in their MITB'11 white (albeit greying) Best In The World shirts that reek of two years worth of sweat, all rushing out to get "20" and "1" tattooed on their arse cheeks. I believe it would exacerbate Punk's cool heel/"our hero" effect, not reverse it.

 

Could have very easily be said with

 

I believe it would exacerbate Punk's cool heel/"our hero" effect, not reverse it.

 

You really can't justify the amount you had to insult other people before getting to this. One or two digs can be funny, but this over kill.

 

It's called adding colour. If we all just stuck to one line replies the forum would be a much duller place. Pipe down neck scrawls.