Bradford Wrestling Alliance

[Great Bear Promotions]

Blah Blah Blah

Sorry, but you clearly do not grasp even the core fundamentals of the wrestling business. Please stop preaching like a latter day saint and appreciate that you are shitarses in an abandoned warehouse. Kthanx.

[tenaciousd]

..which is precisely why your earlier analogy doesn't work. If anything, the 'wrestling' equivalent of kids playing football in the park is more likely to be a group of mates/brothers/etc play-fighting or playing at wrestling in the park/garden/front room/bedroom for their own entertainment. It isn't a group of people getting together to play wrestler on a show advertised to the public, using facilities/overheads which need covering. If kids having a kickabout did need to hire the park, and tried to recoup that cost by charging people to watch, no fool would pay to see it, since they know it is just kids having a laugh.

 

But people can't wrestle in a garden, or in this case, a warehouse without receiving backlash for it. You can play football where you want as long as it's not disrupting the folk that live nearby. Yet every man and his dog can criticise people wrestling where they want to.

 

My point - wrestling isn't necessarily at a place where people can tell the difference between the professionally run, properly-trained outfits and the untrained kids hiring the community hall for the night to play wrestler. Sure, any idiot can tell the difference between the like of WWE and something taking place in their working mens' club, but I'm not necessarily sure they make that distinction between anything that isn't WWE - it's all the same to them. They see 'AMERICAN WRESTLING LIVE~' on a poster, a picture of a muscley guy, a photo of another guy in a mask, and think it's that 'British Wrestling'. There is always the danger that they see a shit British wrestling show from one of these 'pisspot' (to steal the phrase cooked up by someone else earlier) teams and write off all British wrestling there and then. It damages the scene as a whole - and it's not exactly in the best of shape as it is.

 

Fair point. I don't buy in to this idea that those at the top of the UK scene's hierarchy are in it to save the scene. As someone said, they're business people. They want to make money. If more people were actually bothered about rescuing the scene, we'd get somewhere, and regardless of the amount of training and budget of shows, everyone from green to veteran should have a say on how that rescue should happen.

 

In keeping with the football analogy, you earlier used the example of comparing Manchester United and MK Dons. Again, it doesn't really work. People who go to football know and understand the difference between the two. There is a tiered league system based on ability and merit, and people understand the expected difference in quality between a Premier League match and one from League One. If someone went along to a scrappy kickabout between two lower-league teams, they wouldn't think all football was shit and never tune in again. That understanding of the difference just isn't there in the public with British wrestling.

 

I think there is a tiered system in wrestling too, albeit only hypothetically. If there was a realistic tier to the scene, then people could possibly differentiate between the many. How you would structure something like that again comes back to the possibility of an independent wrestling body to oversee everything, and that's when egos truly clash, which again will not help at all.

 

Still, with all that said, I'm glad you've chosen to debate the issue reasonably, rather than going down the route of abuse and 'FUCK THE HATERS' like so many others have in the past.

 

I'd rather help people to understand where we are coming from, rather than blow the opportunity by giving people verbal and putting my head back in the sand. All constructive responses from anyone are read and greatly appreciated, as time can come at a premium these days.

[TheHarveyDale]

 

There are so many other things that you're written on here that I could pick apart but i get the feeling everytime I do that you'll come back with an even more convoluted retort that wouldn't help your argument one bit, so in short your entire premise that what RWL is doing is good, you flat out wrong.

 

 

I have to agree with Mikey 100% on that one, RWL is not a 'show' per say, all it comes across as is a place where you guys get together in an abandoned warehouse with a ring, Lewy's 'deathmatch' with Tom got a lot of negative feedback at the time it went live and quite rightly so.

 

It seems you are again getting advice here from someone much more experienced and in a position to give it than myself or many of the other posters on here. If a guy like Mikey Whiplash is telling you that something like RWL is detrimental then I think that kind of feedback direct from one of the UK's leading performers and promoters is invaluable. The problem I have encountered with any of the guys involved in RWL is that you all really believe that it is doing you some good. If you can't shake that mentality off to begin with then it isn't going to matter who is offering you guys help and training as you will always be back at square one thinking that people are just saying it to be hateful.

 

Certainly from my point of view, and I see A LOT of wrestling up and down the country, I have never seen anything quite as ridiculous as RWL comes across in the videos that you post.

[mikey whiplash]

Last time i checked the chances of life threatening injury between kicking a ball between the post of an Argos goal frame and getting dropped on your head from a pile driver was a lot less.

 

You've over-analysed what I've said there. Of course the risk is greater in wrestling in terms of injury, but even the most seasoned wrestler with the highest grade of training receives sickening injuries. It's something that is part and parcel of the business.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that in British wrestling, there is a clear divide between those who can afford to train and those who can't. And those who can't are shit on from a great height for not training.

 

Football training can be, if the talent is there and spotted, free all the way through to professional football. I don't see why wrestling cannot be the same. Videos like RWL and whoever else on YouTube are them putting themselves out there for someone to take notice, rather than waiting for someone to turn up as a "scout" (do they even have them in wrestling?) to an event they might be performing at.

 

You also talk about training should be free in football so why shouldn't be with wrestling. You can't compare the two and not because of the whole "real" sport over "sports entertainment" argument but for the simple fact all Football clubs see their academy footballers as business investments and will make money out of some of them in the long run and against the loses of an academy would still run a profit. No I wrestle, I teach at a training school in Glasgow and i run shows myself and i know from all three points of view this would never work in the wrestling industry.

 

So "sports entertainment" justifies the price of training alone? And promoters don't see the performers they book as business investments also? You make money out of wrestlers, and therein lies the similarities. Academies don't necessarily still run a profit. The difference is that they are bankrolled by the club (or the league, in some cases), regardless of there being 1 trainee or 100.

 

There are so many other things that you're written on here that I could pick apart but i get the feeling everytime I do that you'll come back with an even more convoluted retort that wouldn't help your argument one bit, so in short your entire premise that what RWL is doing is good, you flat out wrong.

 

Regards,

 

Professional wrestler of 12 years, trainer and promoter Mikey Whiplash.

 

I'm not saying everything RWL does is good. The public shows we have put on have always met the targets set by ourselves. And in terms of picking apart what I have to say, I know exactly who you are, and respect every opinion and advise you have to give, but in that final statement, you've proven exactly what I said in the first post - you don't want to help. You just want to rip it to pieces rather than advise what to do differently, if anything at all, and help these guys get a break.

 

Ask anyone who knows me in the wrestling business and the 1st thing they'll probably tell you is i'm a very opinionated prick(or insert worse) the next thing they'll tell you i'll quite happily tell you that i've helped alot of people out with advice and positive criticism but along as you believe that RWL are doing less fortunate people a favor by teaching for free you're wrong.

 

I could sit here right now and list plenty of schools based all over the country who provide more than good value for money and i'm sure they'll tell you that they have more than one student who doesn't have a silver spoon in their mouth, who come from working class back grounds(like myself) and decided that they were willing to cut a few corners will drinking a weekends, having a takeaway because it was easier than cooking that night or the younger ones that wouldn't go the shop all week to pay for it will their pocket money(i assume that's what they still call it).

 

The simple fact is the whole premise of teaching and training for free is for the lazy and people who like to make excuses.

[mikey whiplash]

Blah Blah Blah

Sorry, but you clearly do not grasp even the core fundamentals of the wrestling business. Please stop preaching like a latter day saint and appreciate that you are shitarses in an abandoned warehouse. Kthanx.

 

No offence here, but you're throwing stones whilst living in a glass house.

[Your Fight Site]

"You get what you pay for" springs to mind. If you're not paying for wrestling training, then don't expect to advance past wrestling in an empty warehouse.

[tenaciousd]

I have to agree with Mikey 100% on that one, RWL is not a 'show' per say, all it comes across as is a place where you guys get together in an abandoned warehouse with a ring, Lewy's 'deathmatch' with Tom got a lot of negative feedback at the time it went live and quite rightly so.

 

Can I just dispel this "abandoned warehouse" myth? Granted, it needs quite a bit of work, but it's far from abandoned. And if it were, do you think we'd put a ring in there?

 

I'm not a fan of the hardcore element of wrestling at all, to be honest. Tom has always had fun doing these sorts of things, and Lewy was safe throughout. It was meant to be a fun match. I can understand why people were negative towards it, considering Lewy's remarkable talent, but it should be noted that we're not the "moronic influences" stated earlier.

 

It seems you are again getting advice here from someone much more experienced and in a position to give it than myself or many of the other posters on here. If a guy like Mikey Whiplash is telling you that something like RWL is detrimental then I think that kind of feedback direct from one of the UK's leading performers and promoters is invaluable. The problem I have encountered with any of the guys involved in RWL is that you all really believe that it is doing you some good. If you can't shake that mentality off to begin with then it isn't going to matter who is offering you guys help and training as you will always be back at square one thinking that people are just saying it to be hateful.

 

Indeed, and I'm not just going to disregard Mikey's advice, nor will I yours or Big Benny's. I know personally that it is extra work that I really don't mind doing. I enjoy the time I spend down there amongst, and always like to see Tom, Jay and Lewis wrestle their matches. I can't speak for them regarding whether they feel it does them good or not, but I would almost bank on every one of them saying GBW, BWA and Markout definitely do them good. If the people higher-up in this country's scene say it isn't, that's something they will definitely have to take on board.

 

Certainly from my point of view, and I see A LOT of wrestling up and down the country, I have never seen anything quite as ridiculous as RWL comes across in the videos that you post.

 

If you wouldn't mind, I'd like some elaboration on "ridiculous" when you have time via or email. I feel I've detracted away from the main topic enough, spiraling this thread towards RWL more than was originally intended.

[Great Bear Promotions]

No offence here, but you're throwing stones whilst living in a glass house.

I'm more on about the training cost 'problem' - if people actually want to wrestle Professionally then they'll find a way to pay, as we both agree.

 

In terms of why we're scum feel free to message us and let us know.

[tenaciousd]

Ask anyone who knows me in the wrestling business and the 1st thing they'll probably tell you is i'm a very opinionated prick(or insert worse) the next thing they'll tell you i'll quite happily tell you that i've helped alot of people out with advice and positive criticism but along as you believe that RWL are doing less fortunate people a favor by teaching for free you're wrong.

 

I could sit here right now and list plenty of schools based all over the country who provide more than good value for money and i'm sure they'll tell you that they have more than one student who doesn't have a silver spoon in their mouth, who come from working class back grounds(like myself) and decided that they were willing to cut a few corners will drinking a weekends, having a takeaway because it was easier than cooking that night or the younger ones that wouldn't go the shop all week to pay for it will their pocket money(i assume that's what they still call it).

 

The simple fact is the whole premise of teaching and training for free is for the lazy and people who like to make excuses.

 

I expressed questions over the idea of teaching a few years back, wondering how exactly people would be booked on shows without an established name having trained them. It's something out of my control. As I continued, I realised that there were "unlicensed" shows going on in bars, clubs, etc. across the country that don't undertake the same amount of planning and policies as a proper show would. But the wrestlers being booked on those shows were happy enough to do it, so I wouldn't ask questions.

 

I do hope the lads can make it big on this scene as they have some great potential in my eyes and clearly from the perspective of others. It's up to them what they are willing to sacrifice to do that.

[Patrick "Madman" Kelly]

No offence here, but you're throwing stones whilst living in a glass house.

I'm more on about the training cost 'problem' - if people actually want to wrestle Professionally then they'll find a way to pay, as we both agree.

 

In terms of why we're scum feel free to message us and let us know.

 

 

I don't he called you scum from what I've read.

[Surf Digby]

It all boils down to money, in my opinion. If you've got the silver spoon, great, you can afford the expense of training to come out with a certificate that means essentially nothing in the grand scheme of things, while those who can't afford it but have the raw passion for the business find alternate ways of doing what they love (which is something else some of you seem to forget - people love this business and aren't just in it to make money). But hey. Wrestling should just be for those who can afford it, right? Talent is either there or it isn't, and with some help, advice and a chance, some of these wrestlers would actually be on YOUR shows.

Utter bollocks. I have no silver spoon and know plenty of other people that trained who didn't either.

 

If money is so tight, offer to work as ring crew in return for training. Get an evening job to cover training costs. Those with the "raw passion for the business" find alternate ways to get trained, not make excuses and not bother.

 

It's sad that promoters have opted to decline their talent based on their past, mind you. I mean, where would PAC be if Vinnie Mac saw that backyard video floating about?

Exactly where he is now, because his CV shows that he gave up on the backtarding, got trained properly, and worked for reputable promotions.

 

I'm curious though, are you saying that he backyarded because he had the "raw passion", or he gave it up and got trained properly because he had a silver spoon?

 

The point I'm trying to make is that in British wrestling, there is a clear divide between those who can afford to train and those who can't. And those who can't are shit on from a great height for not training.

No there isn't. There's a divide between those who make the effort to find the means to train, and those who think they already know everything and so don't bother.

 

These cunts are the ones who blag there way onto a show and land their knees on someone's face, or have a strop because the ring isn't made up of crashmats and it'll hurt them if they have to bump in it.

 

I'm not a fan of the hardcore element of wrestling at all, to be honest. Tom has always had fun doing these sorts of things, and Lewy was safe throughout. It was meant to be a fun match. I can understand why people were negative towards it, considering Lewy's remarkable talent, but it should be noted that we're not the "moronic influences" stated earlier.

The negativity was down to it being a child getting sliced up in a filthy industrial unit for the benefit of a dozen mongs masquerading as an audience.

[tenaciousd]

Utter bollocks. I have no silver spoon and know plenty of other people that trained who didn't either.

 

If money is so tight, offer to work as ring crew in return for training. Get an evening job to cover training costs. Those with the "raw passion for the business" find alternate ways to get trained, not make excuses and not bother.

 

Out of curiosity, do you pay your own rent, council tax, bills, etc. whilst holding down a full time job?

 

Exactly where he is now, because his CV shows that he gave up on the backtarding, got trained properly, and worked for reputable promotions.

 

I'm curious though, are you saying that he backyarded because he had the "raw passion", or he gave it up and got trained properly because he had a silver spoon?

 

I haven't the slightest clue as to whether PAC has money or not. I'd say he is an incredible talent that has, you're right, worked his way up. He deserves it.

 

No there isn't. There's a divide between those who make the effort to find the means to train, and those who think they already know everything and so don't bother.

 

These cunts are the ones who blag there way onto a show and land their knees on someone's face, or have a strop because the ring isn't made up of crashmats and it'll hurt them if they have to bump in it.

 

I refer you back to the top of this post.

 

The negativity was down to it being a child getting sliced up in a filthy industrial unit for the benefit of a dozen mongs masquerading as an audience.

 

If I remember correctly, Lewy didn't get sliced at all during that match. Tom was the only one to bleed.

 

Good to see with words like "cunts" and "mongs" you can hold a constructive discussion with someone.

[robbo9292]

The weird part is Iceman or someone else said something to some of the Wrestling in Leeds guys or whatever it is about paying for their rent, etc without being paid for shows. Yet i expect many of them don't have a job because they way you make it sound or have said there is

[Surf Digby]

Utter bollocks. I have no silver spoon and know plenty of other people that trained who didn't either.

 

If money is so tight, offer to work as ring crew in return for training. Get an evening job to cover training costs. Those with the "raw passion for the business" find alternate ways to get trained, not make excuses and not bother.

Out of curiosity, do you pay your own rent, council tax, bills, etc. whilst holding down a full time job?

Yes.

When I started training I was on barely more than minimum wage and relied on public transport. I'd get the bus straight from work so I could get there in time, and afterwards I'd sit in the bus station until near midnight with the junkies and pissheads because it was the only way home.

The negativity was down to it being a child getting sliced up in a filthy industrial unit for the benefit of a dozen mongs masquerading as an audience.

 

If I remember correctly, Lewy didn't get sliced at all during that match. Tom was the only one to bleed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCwclatm_PU

2:33

Both of them are bleeding.

 

Good to see with words like "cunts" and "mongs" you can hold a constructive discussion with someone.

What parts of my comments weren't constructive? Using the word cunt does not detract from my point that untrained people are a risk to others and themselves.

[Patrick "Madman" Kelly]

If you want something bad enough you will do whatever it takes to make enough money to get the right training. From what I can see is weak excuses for not doing that.

Not enough hours in the day?......get up earlier

Have not got any money?.....get a job

My job don't pay enough?........get another job and have 2.

 

If you want something bad enough you will find solutions not excuses.