Bradford Wrestling Alliance

[Big Benny HG]

Kids playing football in the park don't charge the public to come and watch their matches.

[tenaciousd]

My first point wasn't shitting on them, i expect to see more kids at shows myself as well even if some kids in certain areas are complete pains in the backsides. The point of wrestling isn't a sport and your question can come back to you though, who claims it as a sport, it's more a form of entertainment than a sport. Yes that does bring up the term sports entertainment. The football is a hard one and irrelevant thing anyway but i was thinking more kids go to school (and i know schools that charge for training) but can also go for kids league teams (in which they do have they pay). I also know that people are in wrestling because of the passion, thats why everyone if not most of them get into it but like i said it is about making money thats for the company and wrestlers alike. As people say paying for your own travel to venues, etc isn't what you should be doing unless you are getting paid in return. Oh and to go onto the other point, if they don't have the money/the area is is on its knees i wouldn't try and promote there because i'd expect little money to come in as people wouldn't/shouldn't want to spend money on something that isn't a necessity.

 

Like i've said to Mr. Dale, i myself would love to travel and watch shows, however as i don't have a job i obviously can't and don't travel. Once i get a job, i'm going to work my ass off with that, get money coming in and hopefully travel to watch shows along with maybe training in some different areas.

 

People WANT to wrestle. If that means a trip to Bradford on the train, so be it. Some people like that break away from reality for the day.

 

In terms of kiddie leagues, yes, the league needs paying for, but unless the facilities need paying for as well, there's no need to ask for money for it unless you're doing it for profit.

 

I'm shocked to see that you know of schools charging for training. Again, unless the facilities need paying for, that should be free.

 

There's still a lot of tech in British Wrestling, which is why I say it's a sport more than it is entertainment over here. Over there, sure, Sports Entertainment it is, what with the endless promos and bullshittery. The likes of Doug Williams are revered over here because of their actually wrestling ability, and that's from sport. We're a different species to those over the pond. Dare I say, we appreciate it more without the need for a promo or hype to add intensity to it.

 

Back to my point: if promoters can get their talent for free (and has been the case in Blackburn, to get something on in the community that people can choose to come to and enjoy) and pay as little as possible with the talent WILLINGLY working for free, then it's only good for the community, and that's the main benefit here.

 

Kids playing football in the park don't charge the public to come and watch their matches.

 

Kids don't pay for the usage of the park.

[thepigmanandyhogg]

UKWrestlingfan1981

 

I have absolutely no problem with criticism whatsoever, however I do have an issue with trolling without sound facts or basis, or mis information

 

I have fully checked NCWA records, which have been in place since Oct 22nd 2011, when we started training classes, of which there is no record of you, and anyone who matches you on the registration forms, medical declarations, training regulation sign offs or fire registers. Therefore you would not be allowed to train with us.

 

Fair enough if you have trained under me before, but if that was the case you would not have trained under Mark Sanderson / Impact, as up until that date we have never taught together, and the only times we would have been in the same training environment supervising or teaching would have been under Alan Johnson, which would have been 2007 at the very latest some 5 years ago.

 

In that case you would be slating Mark Sanderson as a trainer, either when you have not trained under him at NCWA, because you havent trained at NCWA, or from a past experience training under myslef, for which I am happy to be criticised as you as is everyone else is entitled to their opinion of me, where Mark had nothing to do with it, or from experiences over 5 years ago.

 

Feel free to attack me, feel free to question me, feel free to slag me off, but please have the honesty to do it without lying, misinforming or trying to hash vague bits together from the past.

[tenaciousd]

And while you say RWL has no place on the internet, one of the main reasons RWL is on there is to show people that you don't have to have a fancy certificate to be a good entertainer. It also gives the people on these shows the chance to watch their matches back, take notes and improve over time - something all three of the aforementioned guys have done over the past 3/4 years in particular.

 

Well unfortunately I know first hand that RWL is a huge contributing factor as to why none of the lads will get bookings at any major promotions. I put Tom & James forward to a couple of promoters that I have dealings with on a regular basis, they said they would take a look at them, both messaged me back saying they would not use anyone associated with 'that crap in a warehouse' .

 

I have said all I can say on that front so no point harping on but until the guys take some advice and quit with that one I fear the abuse will only get worse. There are plenty of ways to tape your matches and let them watch them back in order to learn without them needing to be in the public eye on a place like youtube. With the offer of free training at Futureshock for the lads in your area that should be all of the learning they need to really make something of themselves.

 

Your offer is definitely something I would advise them to take, and very gracious.

 

It's sad that promoters have opted to decline their talent based on their past, mind you. I mean, where would PAC be if Vinnie Mac saw that backyard video floating about?

 

We're always trying to improve RWL with

[TheHarveyDale]

And while you say RWL has no place on the internet, one of the main reasons RWL is on there is to show people that you don't have to have a fancy certificate to be a good entertainer. It also gives the people on these shows the chance to watch their matches back, take notes and improve over time - something all three of the aforementioned guys have done over the past 3/4 years in particular.

 

Well unfortunately I know first hand that RWL is a huge contributing factor as to why none of the lads will get bookings at any major promotions. I put Tom & James forward to a couple of promoters that I have dealings with on a regular basis, they said they would take a look at them, both messaged me back saying they would not use anyone associated with 'that crap in a warehouse' .

 

I have said all I can say on that front so no point harping on but until the guys take some advice and quit with that one I fear the abuse will only get worse. There are plenty of ways to tape your matches and let them watch them back in order to learn without them needing to be in the public eye on a place like youtube. With the offer of free training at Futureshock for the lads in your area that should be all of the learning they need to really make something of themselves.

 

Your offer is definitely something I would advise them to take, and very gracious.

 

It's sad that promoters have opted to decline their talent based on their past, mind you. I mean, where would PAC be if Vinnie Mac saw that backyard video floating about?

 

We're always trying to improve RWL with

[Great Bear Promotions]

This thread.

[Toga]

So, this gets me nicely along to everybody's favourite topic - Brett Bell.

 

Now, I am going to ask this on Brett's behalf as I know he is not on UKFF or on Twitter so he asked me a question direct to my facebook :

 

"I am not a trainer as such I help out at 2 training schools with basics (bumps etc and new ppl)...I don't work for free at any company I wrestle at and get paid for my assistance at these training classes yet I'm regularly named as one of the worst by these ppl I can't figure this out even you didn't attempt to put these ppl right on their incorrect miss aimed points ...?"

 

I have met Brett on several occassions - I have seen him work and been present when he has been showing people a better way of doing things. Brett is a nice guy. I have never been to one of Brett's classes (although he has made the point that he only deals with the absolute basics/bumps etc) so cannot comment first hand on his ability to teach anyone else anything. What I will say in Brett's defence (and i'm sure this is where Isaac will shoot me down) is that Brett is willing to listen to people's opinions, take criticism and do what he can to improve himself both as a performer and as a teacher. He has never come across to me as a 'know it all' type who thinks that he is greater than anybody else in the business and nor have I ever heard him do anything but encourage people to do the best they can.

 

Because you get paid for something does not make you good at it. (I will also point out I have personally never claimed he works for nothing)

 

Secondly.. Knowing Brett, Knowing others that know Brett and have worked /dealt / spoken with Brett also.. I know this second bolded part to be mostly hogwash.

 

On another note Lewis I have spoken to in the past and have told him the potential and ability that I believe him to have and at one point would have been 1 of only 2 people anywhere near associated with the early UKW trainees that I would have ever considered using on a DPW show.

 

A massive problem trainees face is when the training schools/promotions decide that they want to use people before they should ever be used and are encouraged/hounded into being on shows. I employ someone who was once a UKW trainee and after literally 5 sessions they wanted him on shows. Luckily he had myself and El Ligero telling him how stupid an idea this was when no where near ready, but this kind of encouragement from training schools/promoters further goes to jeapodise trainees who arnt ready for shows. (As with the case of the kid that got hurt at BWA). Being on my facebook (and after meeting him a couple times) I know the amount of training he has had and he should have not been asked or allowed to be on a show as he has simply had far too little training.

[Big Benny HG]

Kids playing football in the park don't charge the public to come and watch their matches.

Kids don't pay for the usage of the park.

..which is precisely why your earlier analogy doesn't work. If anything, the 'wrestling' equivalent of kids playing football in the park is more likely to be a group of mates/brothers/etc play-fighting or playing at wrestling in the park/garden/front room/bedroom for their own entertainment. It isn't a group of people getting together to play wrestler on a show advertised to the public, using facilities/overheads which need covering. If kids having a kickabout did need to hire the park, and tried to recoup that cost by charging people to watch, no fool would pay to see it, since they know it is just kids having a laugh.

 

My point - wrestling isn't necessarily at a place where people can tell the difference between the professionally run, properly-trained outfits and the untrained kids hiring the community hall for the night to play wrestler. Sure, any idiot can tell the difference between the like of WWE and something taking place in their working mens' club, but I'm not necessarily sure they make that distinction between anything that isn't WWE - it's all the same to them. They see 'AMERICAN WRESTLING LIVE~' on a poster, a picture of a muscley guy, a photo of another guy in a mask, and think it's that 'British Wrestling'. There is always the danger that they see a shit British wrestling show from one of these 'pisspot' (to steal the phrase cooked up by someone else earlier) teams and write off all British wrestling there and then. It damages the scene as a whole - and it's not exactly in the best of shape as it is.

 

In keeping with the football analogy, you earlier used the example of comparing Manchester United and MK Dons. Again, it doesn't really work. People who go to football know and understand the difference between the two. There is a tiered league system based on ability and merit, and people understand the expected difference in quality between a Premier League match and one from League One. If someone went along to a scrappy kickabout between two lower-league teams, they wouldn't think all football was shit and never tune in again. That understanding of the difference just isn't there in the public with British wrestling.

 

Still, with all that said, I'm glad you've chosen to debate the issue reasonably, rather than going down the route of abuse and 'FUCK THE HATERS' like so many others have in the past.

[GPW Kristian Zane]

A lot of these promotions spring up basically because a lot of these lads and lasses try pro wrestling training but don't become wrestlers overnight so they go off to do their own thing. If they stuck with the training to begin with there wouldn't be any of these promotions popping up and kids wouldnt have to spend nights in hospital because they don't know how to exit a ring safely. The one saving grace is that these promotions don't last long.

[TheHarveyDale]

So, this gets me nicely along to everybody's favourite topic - Brett Bell.

 

Now, I am going to ask this on Brett's behalf as I know he is not on UKFF or on Twitter so he asked me a question direct to my facebook :

 

"I am not a trainer as such I help out at 2 training schools with basics (bumps etc and new ppl)...I don't work for free at any company I wrestle at and get paid for my assistance at these training classes yet I'm regularly named as one of the worst by these ppl I can't figure this out even you didn't attempt to put these ppl right on their incorrect miss aimed points ...?"

 

I have met Brett on several occassions - I have seen him work and been present when he has been showing people a better way of doing things. Brett is a nice guy. I have never been to one of Brett's classes (although he has made the point that he only deals with the absolute basics/bumps etc) so cannot comment first hand on his ability to teach anyone else anything. What I will say in Brett's defence (and i'm sure this is where Isaac will shoot me down) is that Brett is willing to listen to people's opinions, take criticism and do what he can to improve himself both as a performer and as a teacher. He has never come across to me as a 'know it all' type who thinks that he is greater than anybody else in the business and nor have I ever heard him do anything but encourage people to do the best they can.

 

Because you get paid for something does not make you good at it. (I will also point out I have personally never claimed he works for nothing)

 

Secondly.. Knowing Brett, Knowing others that know Brett and have worked /dealt / spoken with Brett also.. I know this second bolded part to be mostly hogwash.

 

On another note Lewis I have spoken to in the past and have told him the potential and ability that I believe him to have and at one point would have been 1 of only 2 people anywhere near associated with the early UKW trainees that I would have ever considered using on a DPW show.

 

A massive problem trainees face is when the training schools/promotions decide that they want to use people before they should ever be used and are encouraged/hounded into being on shows. I employ someone who was once a UKW trainee and after literally 5 sessions they wanted him on shows. Luckily he had myself and El Ligero telling him how stupid an idea this was when no where near ready, but this kind of encouragement from training schools/promoters further goes to jeapodise trainees who arnt ready for shows. (As with the case of the kid that got hurt at BWA). Being on my facebook (and after meeting him a couple times) I know the amount of training he has had and he should have not been asked or allowed to be on a show as he has simply had far too little training.

 

 

Fair enough, I speak as I find people on a personal level and form my own opinions of them. I am not trying to paint Brett as a saint of modern day wrestling and as I said have never been in an environment where by he is trying to 'teach' me anything - I have always found him willing to listen. I think I am going to head upto UKW and go along to one of Brett's training classes and form my own opinion of it, personally I still believe there are people a lot more harmful to trainees than Brett.

[robbo9292]

To bring along with that point that does seem many the cases. However having been on and off with training myself, i've thought about running shows (obviously once i get an income and can get deals, etc) i'd take a look at promotions which are local and around the UK for advice from promoters on how to run shows and which guys to book maybe.

[mikey whiplash]

Wrestling is still considered a sport in this country. Compare that with football, in terms of training and so on. The facts are, you DON'T have to be trained to have talent in either, and you can't stop people from doing what they want to do, in a backyard or anywhere else, for that matter. Imagine the FA banning kids from playing football in their back garden because they haven't got training from Michael Owen. Give me a break.

 

 

Last time i checked the chances of life threatening injury between kicking a ball between the post of an Argos goal frame and getting dropped on your head from a pile driver was a lot less.

 

You also talk about training should be free in football so why shouldn't be with wrestling. You can't compare the two and not because of the whole "real" sport over "sports entertainment" argument but for the simple fact all Football clubs see their academy footballers as business investments and will make money out of some of them in the long run and against the loses of an academy would still run a profit. No I wrestle, I teach at a training school in Glasgow and i run shows myself and i know from all three points of view this would never work in the wrestling industry.

 

There are so many other things that you're written on here that I could pick apart but i get the feeling everytime I do that you'll come back with an even more convoluted retort that wouldn't help your argument one bit, so in short your entire premise that what RWL is doing is good, you flat out wrong.

 

Regards,

 

Professional wrestler of 12 years, trainer and promoter Mikey Whiplash.

[tenaciousd]

With regards to the 'improving with no

[Toga]

With regards to the 'improving with no

[tenaciousd]

Last time i checked the chances of life threatening injury between kicking a ball between the post of an Argos goal frame and getting dropped on your head from a pile driver was a lot less.

 

You've over-analysed what I've said there. Of course the risk is greater in wrestling in terms of injury, but even the most seasoned wrestler with the highest grade of training receives sickening injuries. It's something that is part and parcel of the business.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that in British wrestling, there is a clear divide between those who can afford to train and those who can't. And those who can't are shit on from a great height for not training.

 

Football training can be, if the talent is there and spotted, free all the way through to professional football. I don't see why wrestling cannot be the same. Videos like RWL and whoever else on YouTube are them putting themselves out there for someone to take notice, rather than waiting for someone to turn up as a "scout" (do they even have them in wrestling?) to an event they might be performing at.

 

You also talk about training should be free in football so why shouldn't be with wrestling. You can't compare the two and not because of the whole "real" sport over "sports entertainment" argument but for the simple fact all Football clubs see their academy footballers as business investments and will make money out of some of them in the long run and against the loses of an academy would still run a profit. No I wrestle, I teach at a training school in Glasgow and i run shows myself and i know from all three points of view this would never work in the wrestling industry.

 

So "sports entertainment" justifies the price of training alone? And promoters don't see the performers they book as business investments also? You make money out of wrestlers, and therein lies the similarities. Academies don't necessarily still run a profit. The difference is that they are bankrolled by the club (or the league, in some cases), regardless of there being 1 trainee or 100.

 

There are so many other things that you're written on here that I could pick apart but i get the feeling everytime I do that you'll come back with an even more convoluted retort that wouldn't help your argument one bit, so in short your entire premise that what RWL is doing is good, you flat out wrong.

 

Regards,

 

Professional wrestler of 12 years, trainer and promoter Mikey Whiplash.

 

I'm not saying everything RWL does is good. The public shows we have put on have always met the targets set by ourselves. And in terms of picking apart what I have to say, I know exactly who you are, and respect every opinion and advise you have to give, but in that final statement, you've proven exactly what I said in the first post - you don't want to help. You just want to rip it to pieces rather than advise what to do differently, if anything at all, and help these guys get a break.