King Pitcos Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Allowing yourself to suspend disbelief is applicable to watching a guy perform an Irish Whip without thinking 'what the fuck was that all about?!', it is not applicable to watching a guy perform a diving headbutt whilst blocking a real life double-homicide from your mind. Â It's a bit scary (not "daddy, why's mummy tied up and not breathing?" scary, but scary nonetheless) that that needed to be explained. Although, given who it needed to be explained to, not particularly shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEWM Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Somebody mentioned it earlier in the thread, and I've said it before when discussion of the "Three stages of fandom" thing comes up, but Benoit altered everything about my enjoyment of wrestling. I'd been a big John Cena fan a few years, and was getting pretty fucked off with all the derision he got on the internet, but the Benoit thing pushed me over the edge and into the "No. Fuck all the midcarders who do stupid shite to get over. If they can't make millions cupping their ear, dropping a dramatic elbow or waving their hand in front of their face, it's their own daft fault and they should be Administrators instead". The reverse of that though, is how much I hate the apparent steroids and HGH reduction. I like watching the big blokes smash fuck out of one another even more than I used to due to the above change of heart over workrate, but there's less and less of that all the time now because there's more little guys in big spots. Â Relating specifically to Benoit matches, I am one of the people who struggles with them. I started rewatching Monday Night Raw from the very beginning in 2009, and am in 04 now so have had plenty of his matches to sit through. However, whilst I can watch them, I am COMPLETELY in my own head about everything he does, rather than getting into the match. Seriously, the entire time, I'm relating any simple move, call on commentary, verbal sparring with his opponent to the murders, I don't know why. As a result, I don't find myself into his matches in the proper way, and unless I get to them during the Raw episodes I'm watching, I normally won't choose to watch them specifically on Youtube or another DVD or whatever. Â Something that still amazes me is some people's (though, it appears, hardly any on here, which is good) disagreement with the WWE's decision to erase him wherever possible. If people don't get that, they're fucking goons who are wrong and aren't worth trying to convince anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moofasa Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Ok maybe a bit wide of the mark with that one. Me personally I don't enjoy his matches like I used to for the reasons that have been outlined and the commentary more than anything where they are usually trying to put him over as a vicious killer. But I don't think somebody has mental health issues because they can. I just feel Pitcos is using this to have a crack at what he deems "Workrate pervs" it's ok to have your opinion, but it doesn't make it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Arch Stanton Posted July 7, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 7, 2012 Seriously, the entire time, I'm relating any simple move, call on commentary, verbal sparring with his opponent to the murders, I don't know why. I do. It's because you're a normal human being NEWM, and consequently you are fully aware that the man prancing around in spandex pants on your TV set murdered his own wife and their little boy in real life. It's not normal to put shit like that to the back of your mind in order to justify your own enjoyment of something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 NEWM, I'd say it's partly because watching any of his stuff back, he definitely looks like the sort of bloke who'd go on a killing spree. His whole act was built around being a bit of a psycho.  Some recent Youtube comments on a Benoit theme music video:   R.I.P chris benoit WWE is not the same with out legends like YOU deathdefyingninja17    He had brain damage . I guess you would do the same thing if you had brain damage , used steriods and your finisher was Diving Headbutt  SaidSake98    R.I.P. Chris , you've always been my favorite wrestler despite the drama  SuperA7XfanFOREVER 6 hours ago    why you mad your dad isnt as great as Chris Benoit  EndingSuicidal    SO WHY FUCK ARE YOU WATCHING THIS VIDEO?? I came here because I respect Chris.. if you don't respect Chris go and watch Justin Bieber's videos..  GurasicWayneGrove89    What he did was bad but it's just wrong what wwe is doing, trying to erase him from history.  TheRoxerBoxerz 15 hours ago    Reguardless if he killed himself he still is one of the greats.  mchlroby 17 hours ago    fuck yourself bitch show some respect for the best wrestler to ever live  jo5emendozza121    WTF Chris Why you Go Why Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moofasa Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 I'd say it's partly because watching any of his stuff back, he definitely looks like the sort of bloke who'd go on a killing spree. His whole act was built around being a bit of a psycho. Â Snuka was never convicted so is a different case, but portayed a pschotic, unstable charachter in the ring and I have no problem watching his matches without thinking about what went on in that hotel room. So is it alright as long as they got away with it? Â It's something you have to ask yourself not dictate to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Seriously, the entire time, I'm relating any simple move, call on commentary, verbal sparring with his opponent to the murders, I don't know why. I do. It's because you're a normal human being NEWM, and consequently you are fully aware that the man prancing around in spandex pants on your TV set murdered his own wife and their little boy in real life. Â To be honest though, I don't think anyone's saying that Benoit's wrestling ability trumps his murdering ability - that would be weird. But the extent to which it actually bothers people varies, and neither reaction is anything for anybody to be ashamed of. I'm not getting at you specifically Arch, it's just that unfortunately these threads always seem to degenerate into moral judgements being thrown around and an apparent need to put people into broad categories where they're either (a) morally outraged at the mere sight of someone going for an armbar takedown or (b) sitting watching Hard Knocks in a 'Victim of the Crossface' t-shirt while wanking furiously to the mental image of Chris Benoit murdering babies. It's not like that. A lot of people can watch an old episode of RAW where Chris Benoit comes on, naturally make the connection in their mind of what he did, but not have to turn the DVD off for fear of spending their day overwhelmed with grief for people they never met who died 5 years ago. Â It's not normal to put shit like that to the back of your mind in order to justify your own enjoyment of something. Â I have to take issue with this point, though. It is normal, hence why millions of people continue to watch the Naked Gun films and listen to albums produced by Phil Spector and all those other examples people have given throughout the thread. It's quite normal for people to compartmentalize these things in their head when entertainers who've produced films or music they like turn out to be deranged murderous cunts. Personally though, I don't feel the need to justify my enjoyment of it at all. It is what it is, and I have no reason to feel guilty about it. I didn't kill those people any more than the people who bought tickets to see the Naked Gun or OJ's NFL team killed his wife by giving him such an astronomical sense of entitlement that he felt he could get away with anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Eddie Posted July 7, 2012 Share Posted July 7, 2012 Well said, Magnum. Â This thread had turned into the usual situation of people being called mentals and mongs or whatever while being told they are "wrong" for having a particular emotional or mental response to something. This was of course without one single person actually placing Benoit's wrestling ability over the fact that he became a murderer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted July 7, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 7, 2012 Is it wrong to say... I just don't care? Nothing to do with being a mental or a workrate pervert, I just DON'T GIVE A SHIT what happened in the end?? I might have done at the time, but the shock faded away and my enjoyment of Benoit's matches didn't. Â When I hear an Oasis song on the radio, I don't think "what an unbearable wanker" I just think "decent tune." Similarly when I hear Glitter or Jacko, I don't think "kiddy fiddler" in the first instance, I just enjoy the music. I'm VERY happy to seperate the work itself from the actions or persona of the artist responsible, else when Gazza scored that goal past the Scots in Euro 96 I'd be shaking my head exclaiming "but... he's a terrible drunkard that beat seven shades of shit out of Sheryl!" I didn't. I screamed "get in!" and life went on. Â Yes, WWE is right to erase Benoit from its history. From a selfish point of view it's cocked up a lot of things, e.g. Break The Walls Down really comes only 80% close to being a complete Jericho introspective without his matches battling against and teaming with Benoit, particularly against Trips and Stone Cold in one of the best Raw matches ever. But it's completely understandable. Â It's detachment. It's fucking easy. When I watch the Crippler winning the title at Mania XX, I throw myself back into how I felt then, the exhuberance of watching my favourite wrestler at the time winning the big one. Much the same as when I look back at photos of my own life, holidays with ex for example, I remember what a great time it was, not the lying cheating cunt she ended up being. Make sense? Probably not. Â Ultimately, I think whether or not you can watch Benoits work without thinking of him as murderer first and foremost probably comes from how highly you rated his work in the first place. Those of us who loved him are selfish enough to go "fuck it, I love this match, I don't CARE what happened in the end," whereas those that didn't can't, and he'll always be MONSTER!1 first and pro wrestler second. I don't really give a shit which side of it you're on, as long as you make an effort to understand the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Arch Stanton Posted July 8, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 8, 2012 It's not normal to put shit like that to the back of your mind in order to justify your own enjoyment of something. Â I have to take issue with this point, though. It is normal, hence why millions of people continue to watch the Naked Gun films and listen to albums produced by Phil Spector and all those other examples people have given throughout the thread. It's quite normal for people to compartmentalize these things in their head when entertainers who've produced films or music they like turn out to be deranged murderous cunts. Personally though, I don't feel the need to justify my enjoyment of it at all. It is what it is, and I have no reason to feel guilty about it. I didn't kill those people any more than the people who bought tickets to see the Naked Gun or OJ's NFL team killed his wife by giving him such an astronomical sense of entitlement that he felt he could get away with anything. The Benoit example isn't quite the same as the other ones you give, at least not to me, because I was only 11 years old when OJ Simpson was tried for murder and was barely even aware of the news or who he was. I hadn't been watching OJ week-in, week-out for the past seven or eight years, like I had with Chris Benoit. Between 2000 and 2007 I had probably spent as many hours looking at Chris Benoit's grimacing face on my television screen as I had looking at my own mother's face in real life. As I said earlier in the thread, he was never a particular favourite of mine, but he was a big part of a show that I followed almost religiously and I did enjoy his work. Therefore, it was a big shock when the news came out that he had topped himself after going crazy and murdering his own family. That is the reason why I personally don't feel comfortable watching him anymore. That feeling of discomfort is compounded of course, by the fact that Benoit's in-ring persona was that of a rabid psychopath and the fact that it can be clearly seen from his in-ring style that the punishment that he inflicted on his own body directly contributed to his eventual mental demise. Â I simply can't watch his work back anymore without seeing a tragedy, it's too creepy to me. So hopefully that explains where I'm coming from. As for those getting over-defensive (Magnum, Eddie), please note that I haven't actually passed any moral judgements on anybody else for their viewing habits- merely explained my own view on the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Ultimately, I think whether or not you can watch Benoits work without thinking of him as murderer first and foremost probably comes from how highly you rated his work in the first place. Â I think that's largely true as well. But it goes back to the sort of people who were obsessive Chris Benoit fans in the first place. The more well-adjusted fans of his, like Loki, went off him after headdroporama ended badly. The ones that stayed true, be it the "RIP Chris U SHUD B IN HALL OF FAME WWE SUX IF NOT PUT U IN" idiots on Youtube, to the Sullivan-conspiracy loons, to the common-or-garden "I still get a semi-on watching him and Eddie at WM20" oddbods... Hmm. I think the people who seek out and enjoy watching Chris Benoit matches in 2012 are the sort of people who deep down feel (not intellectually, unless they're a full mental, but in their gut they feel) that a couple of murders is less of an affront than making a flagship wrestling show PG, booking David Arquette to win a belt, holding down some cruisers or doing a weak STF. Â It's an issue of degrees, basically, and there are certain wrestling fans for whom Chris Benoit -- even now -- is less of a villain/hate figure than Russo, McMahon, Cena, HHH, Bischoff, Hogan etc (none of whom get the "personal life and backstage gossip doesn't count" free pass that people try to undercarpet-brush Roboto's kill frenzy with). Like his crimes are not as bad as their crimes. That's the bit I find baffling, that people will be hero-worshipping or indifferent towards Benoit yet have a deep animosity towards other wrestlefolk. If there's ever a list of wrestling personalities who are/were bad eggs, he's the automatic number one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fye Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 That's all fair enough but the people you're describing there aren't necessarily the people in this thread. Nobody has even mentioned seeking out Benoit matches, nobody on here has made the points you are referring to. You have taken a couple of people being able to still watch him and twisted that to suit your own argument and insults. Many on here seem content to agree to disagree. Â The points you make are fine about hate figures, etc and I agree with them but they aren't relevant to you having a go at people for saying they can watch Benoit. You keep pigeon holing people you know nothing about. Once again, I enjoy the Rumble match with Angle and watched it about 4 years ago. I'm a huge Angle fan and that is one of my favourtie matches. That's the initial point I made that I got slated for by you. No need to make assumptions about what t-shirts I wear, who my favourite wrestler is or how often I watch Benoit matches. I barely even watch wrestling on TV nowadays. Â Magnum and Air Raid sum up my feelings on the matter better than my defensive posts to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.PeterVenkman Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Reading this thread has reminded me that, other than when Shane managed him for about a fortnight and when he teamed with Angle, I never actually rated Benoit  He was always was overrated and it's only got worse since he killed his family, as Pity pointed out all the mongs moaning on Youtube, anyway the thing that did my head is that he always had a look on his face like he was having a shit whenever he was climbing the ropes for the headbutt, plus him saying 'stand back' to Vince in that shite promo was cringeworthy, Overrated and he's a murderer, not the best combination Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 I can't watch Benoit matches but then again I wince and weep whenever Mrs Houchen says "Tea's ready". It still hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ Impact Posted July 8, 2012 Share Posted July 8, 2012 Air Raid sums it up well for me. Â Just cause I watch the odd match doesnt mean I have brain aids or endorse what he did. Â The Youtube fans are mongs thats easy to see but thats true to almost any wrestling clip on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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