No use for a nick Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Â Exactly, or like watching Misawa take the Burning Hammer or the Tiger Driver '91, I can believe there are stil people marking out when they re-watch those spots. Â It's not like that at all. Benoit's damage occurred from taking damage like that on a regular basis. The BH and TD91 are incredibly rarely used (the Hammer's only been used a grand total of something like fourteen times since KK started using it in the 90s), for big match occasions, and, AFAIK, nobody's come away from a match having taken a BH and sustained a concussion. Â Woah, woah, woah. That's English for stop a hoarse. Â Didn't Musawa die due to a life time of working a ridiculously stiff and hard style well past his body's breaking point? Genuine question because that's how I understand it. Â This isn't a knock on him, or the style as I do enjoy it, but if you extrapolate the point Nick is making there it is that Musawa's death was essentially caused by wrestling how he did. Â The fact that he only took a burning hammer once in a while is over simplifying the, all be it poorly made, point that watching a Musawa match where he is taking hard bumps and shots time and time again, which were what led to him dying in the ring, is in some way a parallel to seeing Benoit rock his brains knowing that's what made him kill his kid and smoking hot wife. Â I'm not looking to get involved on Crispin and this isn't necessarily my point of view as I'm not looking to share my point of view, but it does raise an interesting topic here. Â Pretty much what I meant. The number of burning hammers doesn't matter an awful lot. I did read once that KK had to modify slightly the delivery to stop hospitalising people every time, but I realise that might have been a worked source. But even if wrestlers didn't go to hospital after the BH, well, it still was a reckless move, ditto for the Ganso Bomb. The German Suplexes in AJPW and NOAH were much more vicious than the WWE ones (which still did incredible damage by being performed so often), the Saito Suplex is a killer, the Dangerous Backdrop Driver, well, the name says it all and even simple backdrops (the move that killed Misawa even though it had apparently been executed PROPERLY) were not performed square on a flat back, like in the west, but in a much more vicious way. I bet you could find loads of these spots, I remember a Tiger SUpelx from the ramp straight onto the concrete on Misawa, how does it feel to watch that NOW? Â Misawa died when his "lifelong energy bar" had expired, taking al those "fataities" is what fucked him for good, essentially he died of wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 If that's the case, then I think just bringing up Misawa is just as simplistic, given that the vast majority of King's Road guys are still alive and still wrestling, and most of the ones who have died haven't died in the ring, from their injuries, nor have they gone ga-ga and killed their children. He certainly took a lot more damage than was necessary, and a lot of that was down to his own personal style, but it was also down to him wrestling LONG after he should've retired. Â BTW, what's all this "Musawa" business? Some bizarre gag that's sprung up while I've been away, like that "hilarious" tendency of calling Japanese wrestlers Chinese? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 I can't believe anyone would use Youtube comments in an argument on here. Youtube is either full of nutjobs or there are a lot of people taking the piss. Either way, it'd be nice if a discussion on the UKFF about wrestling could reference opinion from the UKFF. Pretty shit to see a well reasoned argument ignored because it's easier to reference nutjobs/trolls on youtube. I'm with NEWM. I can watch a Benoit match but I can't watch it without thinking about the murders.  I don't know if you meant what I posted a few pages ago there Rick but none of the stuff I posted was off Youtube. It was all from another wrestling forum. I wasn't using it to argue a point with anyone on here, I'd just stumbled across the forum and shared a few of the quotes off there. I just posted them really in agreement with someone (Rosegarden I think) who was talking about some conspiracy theorists trying to blame the murders on Kevin Sullivan. Soz if I sidetracked the discussion on here.  As for the point, like I said I can watch Benoit matches if he pops up on something I'm watching anyway, like an old Nitro or something. But I don't seek his matches out and I find it hard not to think about what he did.  edit - Ha, never mind just saw the Youtube comments, I guess you meant that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No use for a nick Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 If that's the case, then I think just bringing up Misawa is just as simplistic, given that the vast majority of King's Road guys are still alive and still wrestling, and most of the ones who have died haven't died in the ring, from their injuries, nor have they gone ga-ga and killed their children. He certainly took a lot more damage than was necessary, and a lot of that was down to his own personal style, but it was also down to him wrestling LONG after he should've retired. BTW, what's all this "Musawa" business? Some bizarre gag that's sprung up while I've been away, like that "hilarious" tendency of calling Japanese wrestlers Chinese?  I usually agree with most of your points, I have full respect for your opinion but I think that in this case you feel that puroresu, which you clearly love, is being attacked and you feel the need to defend it. I love puroresu too, I used to love it even more but I know hate seeing Misawa taking freaky bumps as I now know what he was doing to his body. That's the reason for my comparison, part of what made him great is part of what fucked him and I hope no-one follows their footsteps. Using your counter-argument, we could also look at wrestlers in the US who took as much abuse as Benoit but are still alive and out of jail (Foley, possibly?).  I hope in the future no one will take the same kind of abuse Foley, Misawa, Benoit and many others have taken and I surely hope that punters won't react like they understandably did (myself included) back in the days, as now we know so much more about what can happen to a human crash test dummy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Tommy! Posted July 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 If that's the case, then I think just bringing up Misawa is just as simplistic, given that the vast majority of King's Road guys are still alive and still wrestling, and most of the ones who have died haven't died in the ring, from their injuries, nor have they gone ga-ga and killed their children. He certainly took a lot more damage than was necessary, and a lot of that was down to his own personal style, but it was also down to him wrestling LONG after he should've retired.  Lots of people take or took the kind of shit Crispin did, but he is still singled out because we can clearly see the cause and effect taking place. The same can be said for Musawa, others did that kind of thing, he did it far too much for far too long.  You also seem to contradict your own point  then I think just bringing up Misawa is just as simplistic,  He certainly took a lot more damage than was necessary a lot of that was down to his own personal style, but it was also down to him wrestling LONG after he should've retired  We shouldn't single him out, but his style and the fact he went on doing it for far to long makes him a special case  Seeing him doing some of the shit he did, even if its just at that point in life when we now know he should have hung up his boots, must bring a slight twinge to some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 If that's the case, then I think just bringing up Misawa is just as simplistic, given that the vast majority of King's Road guys are still alive and still wrestling, and most of the ones who have died haven't died in the ring, from their injuries, nor have they gone ga-ga and killed their children. He certainly took a lot more damage than was necessary, and a lot of that was down to his own personal style, but it was also down to him wrestling LONG after he should've retired. BTW, what's all this "Musawa" business? Some bizarre gag that's sprung up while I've been away, like that "hilarious" tendency of calling Japanese wrestlers Chinese?  I usually agree with most of your points, I have full respect for your opinion but I think that in this case you feel that puroresu, which you clearly love, is being attacked and you feel the need to defend it. I love puroresu too, I used to love it even more but I know hate seeing Misawa taking freaky bumps as I now know what he was doing to his body. That's the reason for my comparison, part of what made him great is part of what fucked him and I hope no-one follows their footsteps. Using your counter-argument, we could also look at wrestlers in the US who took as much abuse as Benoit but are still alive and out of jail (Foley, possibly?).  I hope in the future no one will take the same kind of abuse Foley, Misawa, Benoit and many others have taken and I surely hope that punters won't react like they understandably did (myself included) back in the days, as now we know so much more about what can happen to a human crash test dummy.  Yeah, I suppose it was partially defensive - but given recent tendencies on this board, I figured it was best to point out the flaws in the argument. If we're talking about just Misawa's own personal style, I can understand the point, though I would argue that it's more to do with the bigger matches in which he took ridiculous risks (even when I was a smarky-smark-smark, I never thought the Ganso Bomb was ever necessary), rather than the more regular, lower profile matches, when he didn't headbump so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 If that's the case, then I think just bringing up Misawa is just as simplistic, given that the vast majority of King's Road guys are still alive and still wrestling, and most of the ones who have died haven't died in the ring, from their injuries, nor have they gone ga-ga and killed their children. He certainly took a lot more damage than was necessary, and a lot of that was down to his own personal style, but it was also down to him wrestling LONG after he should've retired.  Lots of people take or took the kind of shit Crispin did, but he is still singled out because we can clearly see the cause and effect taking place. The same can be said for Musawa, others did that kind of thing, he did it far too much for far too long.  You also seem to contradict your own point  then I think just bringing up Misawa is just as simplistic,  He certainly took a lot more damage than was necessary a lot of that was down to his own personal style, but it was also down to him wrestling LONG after he should've retired  We shouldn't single him out, but his style and the fact he went on doing it for far to long makes him a special case  Seeing him doing some of the shit he did, even if its just at that point in life when we now know he should have hung up his boots, must bring a slight twinge to some people.  No contradiction, because that's not what I was saying. I didn't say "we shouldn't single him out", I said that he shouldn't be brought mentioned as a solo example to lambast the King's Road style overall, given that none of its other practitioners have gone the same way. I'm saying he IS a singular exception, and that bringing up him as an example of KR being destructive is just as simplistic as I supposedly was by addressing only individual, rarely-used moves, such as the BH, TD91, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Tommy! Posted July 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 No contradiction, because that's not what I was saying. I didn't say "we shouldn't single him out", I said that he shouldn't be brought mentioned as a solo example to lambast the King's Road style overall, given that none of its other practitioners have gone the same way. I'm saying he IS a singular exception, and that bringing up him as an example of KR being destructive is just as simplistic as I supposedly was by addressing only individual, rarely-used moves, such as the BH, TD91, etc. Â Was any one knocking Kings Road? Â I thought we were drawing a parallel between Cripsin and the uncomfortable feeling people get watching his matches knowing they were a contributing factor in what became of him and the uncomfortable feeling people have, or not as the case may be, watching Musawa matches knowing they were a contributing factor in what became of him. Â As I've said both Musawa and Crispin have a very visual cause and effect. Â Do try and keep up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 No contradiction, because that's not what I was saying. I didn't say "we shouldn't single him out", I said that he shouldn't be brought mentioned as a solo example to lambast the King's Road style overall, given that none of its other practitioners have gone the same way. I'm saying he IS a singular exception, and that bringing up him as an example of KR being destructive is just as simplistic as I supposedly was by addressing only individual, rarely-used moves, such as the BH, TD91, etc.  Was any one knocking Kings Road?  I thought we were drawing a parallel between Cripsin and the uncomfortable feeling people get watching his matches knowing they were a contributing factor in what became of him and the uncomfortable feeling people have, or not as the case may be, watching Musawa matches knowing they were a contributing factor in what became of him.  As I've said both Musawa and Crispin have a very visual cause and effect.  Do try and keep up  As I said to No use for a nick, I misunderstood the original post for a knock on KR, using parallels between Misawa and Crispin Wah. No need to be rude about it.  I wonder if people can watch Hulk Hogon drop the leg and not wince, knowing it led to his hip and back injuries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 No contradiction, because that's not what I was saying. I didn't say "we shouldn't single him out", I said that he shouldn't be brought mentioned as a solo example to lambast the King's Road style overall, given that none of its other practitioners have gone the same way. I'm saying he IS a singular exception, and that bringing up him as an example of KR being destructive is just as simplistic as I supposedly was by addressing only individual, rarely-used moves, such as the BH, TD91, etc. Â I don't think anyone did have a go at King's Road style, although I only tend to glance over stuff about Chinese wrestlers so I could've missed it. But if Evil Vince and the WWE schedule and steroids and chairshots are to blame for Roboto going on a mental (and a lot of people do still believe that's the case), surely King's Road has some responsibility for Musawa wrestling himself to death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 No contradiction, because that's not what I was saying. I didn't say "we shouldn't single him out", I said that he shouldn't be brought mentioned as a solo example to lambast the King's Road style overall, given that none of its other practitioners have gone the same way. I'm saying he IS a singular exception, and that bringing up him as an example of KR being destructive is just as simplistic as I supposedly was by addressing only individual, rarely-used moves, such as the BH, TD91, etc. Â I don't think anyone did have a go at King's Road style, although I only tend to glance over stuff about Chinese wrestlers so I could've missed it. But if Evil Vince and the WWE schedule and steroids and chairshots are to blame for Roboto going on a mental (and a lot of people do still believe that's the case), surely King's Road has some responsibility for Musawa wrestling himself to death. Â I don't think anyone did have a go at Vince and the WWE schedule and steroids, although I only tend to glance over stuff about Australian wrestlers, so I could've missed it. Â As I said twice now, I misunderstood about the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I don't think anyone did have a go at Vince and the WWE schedule and steroids  Are you new on the Internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 I don't think anyone did have a go at Vince and the WWE schedule and steroids  Are you new on the Internet?  Are you new to this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted July 9, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted July 9, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Are you new to this thread? Â No... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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