Paid Members Ronnie Posted March 1, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 What a grim job that would be. No-one is expects to be killed in there line of work. The possibility is higher on the mentioned jobs but still no-one goes in sighing heavily to themselves thinking "ahhh schucks... well I'll be dead soon anyway, I'm expecting that". RAF pilots during WW2 did. Rear Gunners would expect to be dead after their fifth sortie; fighter pilots' life expectancy was 87 flying hours. Anybody signing up to do those jobs would have to anticipate a death in service, I reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted March 1, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 I've always found the idea that anyone in the armed forces who gets sent into active service is automatically labelled a 'hero' or 'brave' as a bit strange. They're certainly brave. Even if they join the armed forces because they have no other career choice, it's still brave. Assuming that there is a chance of active service obviously. Â Hero, I'd agree with you. I'm not sure it's heroic just to die for your country. Tragic certainly but not necessarily heroic. Â Steve Jobs mentioned the media. I'd much rather see a "heroic" soldier on the front page of the Newspapers than some celeb twat who's been caught with his knob out. Hero or not, it's certainly more news worthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted March 1, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 They're certainly brave. Even if they join the armed forces because they have no other career choice, it's still brave. Assuming that there is a chance of active service obviously. Â Hero, I'd agree with you. I'm not sure it's heroic just to die for your country. Tragic certainly but not necessarily heroic. Â Steve Jobs mentioned the media. I'd much rather see a "heroic" soldier on the front page of the Newspapers than some celeb twat who's been caught with his knob out. Hero or not, it's certainly more news worthy. Â Some bloke during the World War 2, lying about his age to 'fight the good fight'...that I'd consider brave. Compare that with someone signing up more recently to get shipped straight out to Afghanistan or Iraq, personally I'd consider that more stupid than brave. In the current climate & given the dubious reasoning behind our recent military campaigns, anyone considering a career in the military must either be or desperate or thick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Bellenda Carlisle Posted March 1, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 They're certainly brave. Even if they join the armed forces because they have no other career choice, it's still brave. Assuming that there is a chance of active service obviously. Â Hero, I'd agree with you. I'm not sure it's heroic just to die for your country. Tragic certainly but not necessarily heroic. Â Steve Jobs mentioned the media. I'd much rather see a "heroic" soldier on the front page of the Newspapers than some celeb twat who's been caught with his knob out. Hero or not, it's certainly more news worthy. Some bloke during the World War 2, lying about his age to 'fight the good fight'...that I'd consider brave. Compare that with someone signing up more recently to get shipped straight out to Afghanistan or Iraq, personally I'd consider that more stupid than brave. In the current climate & given the dubious reasoning behind our recent military campaigns, anyone considering a career in the military must either be or desperate or thick. Â Or being drafted without choice then being killed, that's tragic. Â I'm on the same page as you dead man, I agree with everything you've said here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted March 1, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 Compare that with someone signing up more recently to get shipped straight out to Afghanistan or Iraq, personally I'd consider that more stupid than brave. Most bravery is stupid. Someone smarter would walk away. Â I'd imagine plenty of soldiers are thick. I can't imagine they stop to think whether the campaign's in Afganistan and Iraq are wise or just. They join up to defend the country, like many before them and do what they're asked. I wouldn't do it. That's more cowardice than intelligence. Â Or being drafted without choice then being killed, that's tragic. Any death in service is tragic. Expected or not, these guys are just doing a job that someone has to do. No-one deserves to not come home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 In the current climate & given the dubious reasoning behind our recent military campaigns, anyone considering a career in the military must either be or desperate or thick. Â That's a bit fucking harsh. So people should only consider a career in the military when there's a low chance of being sent into conflict? I somehow can't see that producing a good crop of fighters. Â I take my hat off to those low paid British soldiers who go and do the absolute dirty work required to keep our countries' position in the world. It may not be as glamorous as fighting the Nazis, but it's probably as vital to keeping us in this country safe. I'm grateful they do it, as I certainly wouldn't want to. Â The older I get, the more comfortable I am with the double-standard of secretly being thankful that there are people prepared to do the dirty, messy, morally dubious work that I'm too much of a limp-wristed liberal to do. Â Â Â *Edited to make Chest happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted March 1, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 1, 2012 anyone considering a career in the military must either be or desperate or thick. Â That's a bit fucking harsh. So people should only consider a career in the military when there's a low chance of being sent into conflict? I somehow can't see that producing a good crop of fighters. Â I take my hat off to those low paid British soldiers who go and do the absolute dirty work required to keep our countries' position in the world. It may not be as glamorous as fighting the Nazis, but it's probably as vital to keeping us in this country safe. I'm grateful they do it, as I certainly wouldn't want to. Â Â Â Well the full sentence you clipped that from makes explicit mention of "in this current climate with our dubious reasons for war", so I expect that Mike would probably disagree with this bit. As would I. Â And as for our countries' position in the world... well. Tough shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Hence me admitting to a double-standard. I'm free to disapprove of our war in Afghanistan because I'm not getting blown up by terrorists being trained in Afghanistan, because the soldiers are over there destroying the training camps. Â I suspect most of us have absolutely no idea what it takes to keep the status quo, and if we did we'd be horrified. Quite grateful for all the secrecy really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted March 1, 2012 Moderators Share Posted March 1, 2012 Would they really be over here blowing us up though? Â I'm not entirely sure they wouldn't have better things to do with their time and resources if we weren't picking fights to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Dead Mike Posted March 1, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 If you subscribe to the whole 'they're out there protecting our freedom' stance then that's cool, personally I don't. Â If someone chooses a career in the military over any other unskilled job then that's their choice, the risk is why the forces offer better wages, training & post military career options than working in a warehouse or a shop. If you're smart then signing up for a career in the forces during peacetime would be the obvious choice surely? The army's recruitment strategy seems to have little to do with 'producing a good crop of fighters', the fact they recruit now in towns with the worst unemployment says to me they're after quantity rather than quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 That says to me they are after desperate and potentially violent people that they can mould into killing machines. Which is how armies have always operated.  If you're smart then signing up for a career in the forces during peacetime would be the obvious choice surely  Er... that makes no sense if you think about it for a minute. Firstly, if you're smart then you'd know that peace isn't exactly a guaranteed state. Secondly, you'd also know that the army runs plenty of operations even during peacetime (which contribute to the continuance of that peace).  And thirdly, why would the army want to recruit people who don't want to go and fight particularly? That would be like a football club signing players who don't like to run about a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Freebird Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 If someone chooses a career in the military over any other unskilled job then that's their choice, the risk is why the forces offer better wages, training & post military career options than working in a warehouse or a shop. Â Are you implying that a soldier (even a front line infantry fighter) is an unskilled job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted March 1, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 1, 2012 That would be like a football club signing players who don't like to run about a bit. Not necessarily. That isn't quite the given you'd imagine it to be! Â Perhaps people should be given the choice to sign something when they join the army that says if war breaks out, they get to stay in the barracks and do the cleaning or something? Â If someone chooses a career in the military over any other unskilled job then that's their choice, the risk is why the forces offer better wages, training & post military career options than working in a warehouse or a shop. Â Are you implying that a soldier (even a front line infantry fighter) is an unskilled job? I think he's referring to people who are unskilled. You generally get trained to be a soldier. Can't be too many people who have the skills up front, not unless they've been in a gang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Freebird Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I think he's referring to people who are unskilled. You generally get trained to be a soldier. Can't be too many people who have the skills up front, not unless they've been in a gang. Â Understood, thanks for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Perhaps people should be given the choice to sign something when they join the army that says if war breaks out, they get to stay in the barracks and do the cleaning or something? Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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