UFC 140: Jones vs Machida Discussion Thread

[METAL ON METAL]

I think anyone who in the space of a year not only beats but finishes Shogun, Rampage & Machida in title fights, deserves to have an 'era' coined after him.

[1SinN6]

I can't say Mir looked really good standing. He looked out of shape.. bleh. :(Good submission and great one round. A solid win but I now have more questions about Mir then answers.

[Kenny McBride]

I hate the whole idea of an "era" being named for a guy who's still active (and if anyone deserves it, then surely it's Anderson Silva's era and has been for the last few years) but if you're going to have a LHW era, then the guy who finishes three champions and is the first champ since Chuck to get more than one successful defence under his belt is probably the guy to name it after.

[Egg Shen]

I can't say Mir looked really good standing. He looked out of shape.. bleh. :(Good submission and great one round. A solid win but I now have more questions about Mir then answers.

it's been the same for Mir's entire career though. I don't think i'd ever bet on Mir until Saturday night, and the only reason i did was because i was unconvinced that Nogueira had much left. After every Mir ive always found excuses for why his opponent was beaten, but enough's enough i need to give the guy his props, there's always gonna be the doubts about his cardio, it does suck and it was evident again Saturday night, but there's no denying that Frank Mir is without doubt the most dangerous 1st round heavyweight in MMA history, the guy is fucking deadly when he's got some gas in the tank...he's got that weird mix of technique and brute strength, and if if he grabs a hold of something basically, you're fucked.Mir will likely go down as a UFC Hall of Famer, his career has been a rollercoaster, some of Mir's poor performances in the octagon are amongst the worst ever seen in the modern HW division, his high points are right up there with the best though, and few guys have rebounded from adversity the way Frank has.He'll always be a guy i love to hate, but if Frank Mir's fighting you're guaranteed some highlight shit

[Egg Shen]

Regardless of how he does from this point on, as said above you could easily sum up Jones UFC career so far (and especially the last 12 months) as a significant era.

i think the 'era' thing applies mainly due to how Joe Rogan put it Saturday night, saying that Jones is the first in a this batch of super athlete fighters coming through the ranks...and it's true, in around 10 years time the standard of fighter in MMA is gonna be off the charts. The thing that sucks about it all is we are gonna see our favourite fighters get smashed on the way out...which is something thats happening more and more already

[Egg Shen]

I've never been a fan of Ortiz & his 'peoples champ' gimmick was bollocks. Did anyone else notice how ridiculously deformed s face looks now? HGH is bad kids mmmkay.

There's little things that he does that just remind you he's a dick, The 'Peoples Champ', the 'Better Man...........well better fighter' remark in the post fight interview.

ahhh yeh, i was gonna bring that up. That comment rubbed me up the wrong way too, what a dickish thing to say. Tito's nice guy schtick has pissed me off from the beginning, its no so much that he's being a nice guy now, it's more that he's ramming it down our throats, nobody should declare themselves the 'peoples champion' (unless you're the rock ) that's fucking ridiculous, that's a monicker you should earn not give to yourself.One other thing i wanna mention that i aint seen anywhere else, and i think it's relevant given the recent Miguel Torrres-episode. Anyone find it weird that the UFC allowed Mike Whitehead to corner Frank Mir on Saturday (even getting props in Mir's post-fight speech) night given that he recently pleaded guilty to sexual assault on 2 women?

[Deaq]

 

Guess what this is a X-ray of..

 

Link here - http://www.mmanews.com/news/90143

[wandshogun09]

I can't say Mir looked really good standing. He looked out of shape.. bleh. :(Good submission and great one round. A solid win but I now have more questions about Mir then answers.

I think him bulking up is a problem. I always thought he looked sharpest when he was around the 245-250lbs range. When he went up to around 265 for Carwin and 260 for this Nog fight I think the size takes something out of him, he looks sluggish. Taking off that 10-15lbs helps his speed and his grappling imo. Look at some of his early fights when he was lighter, he moved more smooth and was quicker with his transitions.Gotta agree with Ebb's post on Mir. I've made no secret my dislike of him but that was a great win and no-one can make excuses. Nog had his chance to finish and didn't, I was gutted. Mir, to his credit, finished when he got the opportunity. That was the best win of his career for me. He had to show heart which I didn't think he had in him. Even the first Lesnar fight, Lesnar was battering him but he caught a guy who was in his 2nd MMA fight. This was different, you don't just catch Nogueira. To pull off that kimura after being pretty much out was crazy.I've always slagged Mir's cardio and it's a fact it is shite. But like Ebb said for a round Mir is lethal. One of the best finishers in MMA at any weight. That was always my fear with this fight that Mir would be a huge threat in round 1 and after that he fades. But I never expected a sub, or a broken arm. Just didn't think he'd get Nog in that position. I pictured him catching Nog on the feet early and getting a TKO.I will begrudgingly give a ton of credit to Mir for that win.

He'll always be a guy i love to hate, but if Frank Mir's fighting you're guaranteed some highlight shit

Except the Nelson fight and the Cro Cop fight, KO aside :DBut yeah, Mir's highlight reel of subs is nasty. I can only compare it to Tyson's highlight reel of KO's from the 80s.

[mackie]

Guess what this is a X-ray of..

The Picture on page 7

[Deaq]

Sorry missed it.

[chokeout]

Ebbs post about Mir is spot on. He's a guy i genuinely hate but you can't deny he's had some fantastic fights/ highlight reel moments. His cardio has always been shit though. People were blaming it on the motorbike crash years ago but I can't remember a fight that went any distance that he wasn't gassing in. My main problem is hes one of these guys, like Tito, that is more than happy to tell everyone how great they are despite their obvious short comings. After the first Nog fight they were trying to make out he was one of the most dangerous strikers at HW when watching the fight back he was fighting a Nog that was obviously not 100%, He got schooled on his feet on Saturday and was gassing after being held against the fence for a minute. I can see his next fight being a tough one for him because if he loses it hes going to end up in the Rich Franklin position of being able to beat top guys but getting fucked up everytime he tries to fight anyone in the top 3 and being stuck in a weird limbo

[wandshogun09]

His cardio has always been shit though. People were blaming it on the motorbike crash years ago but I can't remember a fight that went any distance that he wasn't gassing in.

Yeah for sure it was always a problem. The motorbike crash was after he won the title from Tim Sylvia. His fight before that was the 2nd Wes Sims fight, went less than 2 rounds and he gassed worse than if you put Barry Austin on a treadmill. That was well before he came off his bike.

My main problem is hes one of these guys, like Tito, that is more than happy to tell everyone how great they are despite their obvious short comings. After the first Nog fight they were trying to make out he was one of the most dangerous strikers at HW when watching the fight back he was fighting a Nog that was obviously not 100%,

Yeah that's my problem with him. Just unbearable levels of smugness which to me was never justified. To be that smug you'd need to be Anderson Silva like in talent for me. I never got why he was so highly rated or so arrogant considering...His inability to go past a round without almost keeling over. The fact he looked like utter shit and arguably lost against Dan fucking Christison. Got KO'd by a 205er Brandon Vera who's gone on to look very lacklustre since.Got TKO'd by strikes by Marcio Cruz, a pure BJJ guy with shit striking (fair enough this was his first fight after the bike crash but still. Nog got fucking ran over by a truck and was in a coma as a child and went onto a legendary career)Then bragging like his wins over Lesnar and Nog (the 1st time) showed he was one of the top heavyweights in the world. Lesnar was in his 2nd fight and still won 87 seconds of a 90 second fight and Nog was a zombie and might aswell have had Everlast printed on his back cos he was nowt but a punch bag that night.Mir's always going on about evolving yet he's still gassing on a regular basis. The Cro Cop fight was one of the shittest fights in UFC history, the Roy Nelson fight he looked terrible, saved only by Roy looking even worse. Then he's coming out with shit like he's a better striker than Dos Santos Yeah I don't like him.All that aside, I have to give him his due for the 2nd Nog fight. There's been times he's looked great in his career (vs Sylvia, Kongo, Williams, Traven) but that was his career defining moment for me, that solidified him as a likely Hall of Famer

I can see his next fight being a tough one for him because if he loses it hes going to end up in the Rich Franklin position of being able to beat top guys but getting fucked up everytime he tries to fight anyone in the top 3 and being stuck in a weird limbo

It's all downhill for Frankie from here. I could see him maybe catching Brock in a sub, maybe even Overeem if he could get a hold of a leg or his neck maybe? I'd still pick them both to beat him though. And I don't think Mir lasts a round with Dos Santos or Velasquez.

[chokeout]

The only good thing about Mir thinking hes a world class striker is that he might think he can stand and trade with JDS or Cain and some lucky fan in the front row will be able to take whats left of his face home as a souvenier

[wandshogun09]

Mir quote on fight with Nog and breaking his arm

"I just locked it up and I wanted to make sure he didn't get out. I'm locking up a submission, and in my mind I want to keep applying force and don't lose it. By the time he tapped the injury had already occurred. I understand the mentality; you're trying to wait for the last second but once I pulled the arm back he could have tapped. But this is Nogueira, a great ground fighter, he's been in that move in practice and gotten out, so he hesitated I'm sure. I'm not going to let go of a hold until the referee tells me to break the hold. I would never do anything dirty or purposely hurt you. I just want to win the fight, the fact that you have to get medical treatment afterwards that sucks. He's another martial artist I hope he can go back to the gym Monday like everyone else.I feel bad that he has to go get it repaired, but I don't feel bad it happened. It would be like a quarterback apologizing for scoring a touchdown. If me and Nogueira ever rolled again, I could easily be the one on the receiving end of the kimura."

Fair play that was more gracious than I expected. And an update on Nog's health

@ufc UFCDr. John Itamura believes Big Nog will be back in the Octagon in no more than 9 monthsDoctor's report: surgery not necessary for Big Nog -he'll have adjustable plastic brace using an ultrasound device 2x/day for 20 mins.

Great news that he won't need surgery. Really as gruesome as that kimura was, Nog was pretty lucky because the majority of the damage was said to be the humerus area (nothing funny about it) and not the shoulder which would have been much worse for recovery time.9 months is a long time but it could have been a lot worse.

[David]

i think the 'era' thing applies mainly due to how Joe Rogan put it Saturday night, saying that Jones is the first in a this batch of super athlete fighters coming through the ranks...and it's true, in around 10 years time the standard of fighter in MMA is gonna be off the charts. The thing that sucks about it all is we are gonna see our favourite fighters get smashed on the way out...which is something thats happening more and more already

That first sentence right there is why I question the whole "era" thing. Joe Rogan has a habit of bullshitting and over exaggerating, which has gotten worse over the past year or so. Couple this with his blatant favouritism during fights and you basically have a list of the reasons I'd have no problem seeing him replaced.The UFC are currently lacking a marketable fighter that can do the business in the cage. We no longer have Couture, Liddell or Ortiz. All of those guys are either done or quickly on their way to being done.Rogan is pushing Jones because the UFC office are telling him to. They view him as their next possible marketable fighter, which couldn't be further from the truth in my opinion. Check the crowd reactions, it's started already. Much like pro wrestling fans see through the manufactured push of Cena, MMA fans aren't buying into Jones as the next face of the company. Jones is a very good fighter, and he's had a hell of a year, but all of this talk of "era's" and batches of "super-athletes" is really cringeworthy. Jones has come along at the best possible time for him personally, as the 205lbs division is looking at a downturn. The guys who have been at the top for the past four or five years are all pretty much on the downward slide.Shogun has a 4-4 record since coming into the UFC in 2007. Much like Wanderlei he's been through a lot of wars over the years, and despite being only 30 he looks to be ageing fast. I've never really been overly impressed with him since he arrived in the US.Henderson managed to score a major win against Fedor this year, and came out on top against Shogun, but he's fucking 41. It's safe to say that his best days are behind him.Rampage has been exposed as pretty one-dimensional in recent times. He was quite easily despatched by Griffin & Evans in their fights, and has never really been convincing in recent times. Again, he's the wrong side of 30 and has those wars on his record that most of the old PRIDE guys do.Again, I'm not saying that Jones isn't a great fighter, because he is. He deserves the plaudits he's getting at present, but once he puts away Rashad Evans, and continues on to defend his title against the new batch of 205lbs fighters on their way up, such as Phil Davis, Alexander Gustafsson, Mo Lawal, Gegard Mousasi etc, then we can talk about him establishing an era.The UFC will push this era shit simply because they haven't had anyone on top that they can market since Chuck Liddell. I don't even know if Jones has that marketability that the UFC are looking for, no matter how good a fighter he is. The fans don't like him, and it's not because he's a Tito Ortiz, it's because they just don't like him.The last era we had in the 205lbs division was the Liddell era. Once Jones puts together 6 or 7 title defenses against guys who are in their prime I'll start to believe the tag line.