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UFC 140: Jones vs Machida Discussion Thread


David

  

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i agree with certain thing you're saying Dave, but in Jon Jones' case i think it's a little more justified. The guys only 21 years of age, when there was talk of the Machida-era (which was mentioned based purely on the unique style he was bringing in) he was an older guy. Other than them 2 has there ever been any other example of 'era' thrown at us? i can't think of one.I can see why Rogan gets on your tits, but you have to understand the mindset of what they are trying to promote...and by watching Jon Jones this year, can you really disgaree with them? the guy's a fucking killer.As for Jones being the face of the company, i think he's going to be succesful, even if it's in a way where the crowd boo's the guy, if he keeps winning like he does people are gonna wanna watch him fight simply because he's exciting as shit to watch, and people are gonna wanna see if anyone can figure the guy out and actually challenge him (that's the feeling i get from watching him already). Jones' seems to be doing a great job of doing work in the mainstream too, he came across great on the talkshows and stuff he did. A few threads ago David you talked about moving the sport into the mainstream, certain ways people gotta act (you singeled out Dana White), how the show's presented etc. Jon Jones looks and acts like a mainstream sports star, surely he's the guy they need at the front of the company (amongst others of course).

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i think the 'era' thing applies mainly due to how Joe Rogan put it Saturday night, saying that Jones is the first in a this batch of super athlete fighters coming through the ranks...and it's true, in around 10 years time the standard of fighter in MMA is gonna be off the charts. The thing that sucks about it all is we are gonna see our favourite fighters get smashed on the way out...which is something thats happening more and more already :(

That first sentence right there is why I question the whole "era" thing. Joe Rogan has a habit of bullshitting and over exaggerating, which has gotten worse over the past year or so. Couple this with his blatant favouritism during fights and you basically have a list of the reasons I'd have no problem seeing him replaced.The UFC are currently lacking a marketable fighter that can do the business in the cage. We no longer have Couture, Liddell or Ortiz. All of those guys are either done or quickly on their way to being done.Rogan is pushing Jones because the UFC office are telling him to. They view him as their next possible marketable fighter, which couldn't be further from the truth in my opinion. Check the crowd reactions, it's started already. Much like pro wrestling fans see through the manufactured push of Cena, MMA fans aren't buying into Jones as the next face of the company. Jones is a very good fighter, and he's had a hell of a year, but all of this talk of "era's" and batches of "super-athletes" is really cringeworthy. Jones has come along at the best possible time for him personally, as the 205lbs division is looking at a downturn. The guys who have been at the top for the past four or five years are all pretty much on the downward slide.Shogun has a 4-4 record since coming into the UFC in 2007. Much like Wanderlei he's been through a lot of wars over the years, and despite being only 30 he looks to be ageing fast. I've never really been overly impressed with him since he arrived in the US.Henderson managed to score a major win against Fedor this year, and came out on top against Shogun, but he's fucking 41. It's safe to say that his best days are behind him.Rampage has been exposed as pretty one-dimensional in recent times. He was quite easily despatched by Griffin & Evans in their fights, and has never really been convincing in recent times. Again, he's the wrong side of 30 and has those wars on his record that most of the old PRIDE guys do.Again, I'm not saying that Jones isn't a great fighter, because he is. He deserves the plaudits he's getting at present, but once he puts away Rashad Evans, and continues on to defend his title against the new batch of 205lbs fighters on their way up, such as Phil Davis, Alexander Gustafsson, Mo Lawal, Gegard Mousasi etc, then we can talk about him establishing an era.The UFC will push this era shit simply because they haven't had anyone on top that they can market since Chuck Liddell. I don't even know if Jones has that marketability that the UFC are looking for, no matter how good a fighter he is. The fans don't like him, and it's not because he's a Tito Ortiz, it's because they just don't like him.The last era we had in the 205lbs division was the Liddell era. Once Jones puts together 6 or 7 title defenses against guys who are in their prime I'll start to believe the tag line.
...yet Tito Ortiz is one the biggest draws in the history of the sport.
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i agree with certain thing you're saying Dave, but in Jon Jones' case i think it's a little more justified. The guys only 21 years of age, when there was talk of the Machida-era (which was mentioned based purely on the unique style he was bringing in) he was an older guy. Other than them 2 has there ever been any other example of 'era' thrown at us? i can't think of one.

As I said, once he strings some wins together I'll buy into the "Jones era". If he get's beaten by Rashad Evans, what then? No doubt he's looked great thus far, and he deserves credit for that, but I'll hold back on buying into the UFC hype machine until he does it over a prolonged period of time.

I can see why Rogan gets on your tits, but you have to understand the mindset of what they are trying to promote...and by watching Jon Jones this year, can you really disgaree with them? the guy's a fucking killer.

Hey, the guy's looked great. I've said that numerous times. It's also worth tempering all of the gushing praise with the points I made on the division as well though. He's come along right at the time when the division is experiencing something of a transition. That's not his fault, of course, but it's pretty much a fact.

A few threads ago David you talked about moving the sport into the mainstream, certain ways people gotta act (you singeled out Dana White), how the show's presented etc. Jon Jones looks and acts like a mainstream sports star, surely he's the guy they need at the front of the company (amongst others of course).

I like Jones. He's changed my impression of him recently during interviews and whatnot, so I'd love for him to string together the wins over the next year or two and make a real statement. If that happens I'll be happy enough.As you said, he's a clean-cut, articulate individual and someone I think portrays MMA in a positive light. That doesn't change the fact that the fans simply don't like him. You took my example of Tito wrong there, as he was obviously playing the "heel" to rile up the fans. Jones isn't. He's being disliked for being a clean-cut, polite, articulate, religious guy. There's a difference.
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I dont think its the fact Jones is pushed down the audience throuts why he gets jeered.I think it is because he is quite a boring person really, he comes across as manufactured and everything he says is very forced. Forrest is the everyman, Chuck was the cool guy with the mohawk, Rampage is comedy gold with charsmia to spare and Machida is the modern day karate kid.What is Jones?, a tall, fairly good looking guy who is pretty middle of the road. The crowd dont feel attached to him in any way. I dont think it is race issue either, Rampage after a tough start became a fan favourite. People have mentioned religion as the reason Jones gets jeered, I disagree with that as well, there are several fighters who get cheered like Rich Franklin and Wanderlai Silva who mention god a lot.Jones is a lot like Rashad Evans, there is just an unlikability and phony nature to him, he is not openly that cocky or immoral, he is just easy to dislike. The same thing that happened with Lennox Lewis, fans never warmed to Lewis in the 90's he was a great fighter and like Jones was not really boring inside the ring/octagon, but he just was not emotional or charasmatic enough, he gave nothing for the audience to sink there teeth into as a personality. That is one of the reasons why they sell Mike Tyson posters in HMV and not Lewis's, and people remember and care about Tyson more than Lewis, even though Lewis in my opinion had the better career.Jones is also not Sonnen, Ortiz (in his prime) or even Lesnar, fans pay to see them get beat with the heat they draw, like Mayweather does in boxing, fans love to hate them, some fans just dislike Jones or are indifferent to him. Jones I think will stuggle to draw with most fighters in the future who are not beloved by the fans like Rampage. He has the genuine grudge with Rashad that will draw interest, but Jones vs Phil Davis and Jones vs Hendo whilst great fights to make, may bomb on PPV.I cant see him having the same connection Liddel, Griffin and Wanderlai have with MMA fans. He is still young, so I could be wrong maybe he will grow into the best fighter ever and his lack of personality and manufactured nature will be overuled by that. I hope so, UFC need some fresh young draws for the future, a lot if the old guard are fading away.

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Top post jim.

 

The Lennox Lewis/Jon Jones comparison is a good one imo. Jones doesn't have that instant connection with his personality but you touched on this at the end of your post, he's still young. I think for a lot of people it's easy to forget due to how great Jones has looked this year, he's still very young and it's still so early in his career. Even guys like GSP didn't connect with the crowds right off the bat, now he's their PPV king. So there's time for Jones.

 

On another point you raised,

 

I've never really got the hate for Rashad. Aside from dancing about mid fight on TUF 2, I thought he came across well on that season and had a real exciting fight in the finale to win the show. There was a spell after that where he was pretty boring and one dimensional but he's come a long way since then and he's improved in all areas and has some of the greatest highlight reel KO's in UFC history.

 

Going into that feud with Rampage I was rooting for Page, but Rashad swayed me on TUF 10. I thought on that TUF and through the whole beef with Rampage he came across well and despite me being a fan, Rampage looked a bit of a twat on the show imo.

 

Rashad's always seemed cool as fuck in interviews too, he was great as a panelist on MMA Live (why's he never on there now?) and his Q&A's on weigh in days are always good. He's a funny guy. His impressions of Tyson, his mom, Marcus Jones, Anderson etc are priceless.

 

I was talking to a mate about it before and he reckoned the hate might be cos Rashad KO'd Chuck but I don't think it's that. It seems the hate started way before that and if KOing Chuck gets you hate then why are Shogun and Rich Franklin not getting booed out of arenas?

 

I don't get the hate at all.

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I was talking to a mate about it before and he reckoned the hate might be cos Rashad KO'd Chuck but I don't think it's that. It seems the hate started way before that and if KOing Chuck gets you hate then why are Shogun and Rich Franklin not getting booed out of arenas?

 

I don't get the hate at all.

Good point

 

But I think the Liddel KO, is a major factor.

 

There is a clear double standard to this, but fans really didnt like Rashad doing that dance after the KO and the cheeky grin on his face. I do agree the fans did not exactly love him before that, I felt they were quite indifferent to him. Even in the arena after the KO, there was bitter atmosphere towards Rashad after that. There was a feeling this guy who they saw as cocky and did'nt care about had just effectivey ended much chance of their beloved hero getting another shot at the belt. If it would have been Griffin who was a folk hero the fans would have not had that reaction on that night.

 

By the time Shogun knocked him out, fans had lost faith in Liddel being the number 1 in the word again. They still loved him, but a lot wanted him to retire and had great sympathy for him, plus Shogun had a lot of fans loving him from his Pride days. Franklin was always liked by the fans, there were people legitamatly distressed when Anderson destroyed him twice, he was/is just a likable/inoffensive man it would take somthing massive for fans to turn on him, so knocking out Liddel after it has been done 3 or 4 times before I can understand why the fans did not turn on him.

 

I am not a Rashad fan proably because he fights some of my favourites and wins, but I will say he is a tremendous fighter who I love to hate like I did with Matt Hughes back in the days of 2005-2006. He is not Tim Slyvia who most fans wanted to dissapear from the earth, and most never respected his talents. I felt he was a good coach on TUF and came across better than Rampage like you said though, morally Rashad should have been cheered against Rampage, but charismia and humour seem to go a long way.

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GSP is a great comparison for Jones. I can't remember him showing any personality until his pleading for a title shot and even then it seemed forced. He was having some great fights but that connection took time. Rashad is an odd one because there is no reason for the majority of the hate. He was dull as fuck after his TUF win and I remember the quite public bitching about him being 'lazy' but the crowds didn't really turn against him till his coaching season, which was mainly due to people liking Rampage so much (Even though he came across as a dick at times) I think its evolved into a lets boo Rashad thing, even though he seems like one of the most likeable people in MMA in interviews

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GSP is a great comparison for Jones. I can't remember him showing any personality until his pleading for a title shot and even then it seemed forced. He was having some great fights but that connection took time. Rashad is an odd one because there is no reason for the majority of the hate. He was dull as fuck after his TUF win and I remember the quite public bitching about him being 'lazy' but the crowds didn't really turn against him till his coaching season, which was mainly due to people liking Rampage so much (Even though he came across as a dick at times) I think its evolved into a lets boo Rashad thing, even though he seems like one of the most likeable people in MMA in interviews

GSP from what I remember became lauded by MMA hardcores in around August of 2005 when he made Frank Trigg look like a novice. I think the crowd warmed to him very quickly after he prayed for a title shot against Hughes after destroying Sherk.

 

GSP used to finshes fights and not fight conservatively, by 2006 the fans loved his humble attitude and endearing broken English, I think there was a serious connection there then, a large amount of fans cheered when he beat BJ despite it being in America when the card was billed as being USA vs Canada. I would say by about 2008 he was a major PPV/Attendence draw as well, along with Ortiz and Liddel he became the a part of the first batch of drawing cards for the UFC PPV boom period.

 

Jones is actually quite a unique case, I would not know who in MMA I could compare him to.

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Ha that's poor form from Dorea there. I'm as big a biased Nog fan and Mir hater you'll find but even I've gotta give credit to Mir for that win,

 

On the stoppage, there was a point there where Mir looked out and had the ref jumped in I don't think people would have had a problem with it. It was only when Nog went for the guillotine that Mir really started to recover.

 

The ref made the judgement to let the fight continue when Mir was hurt and in hindsight it was obviously the right call. But at the point where Mir was face down he wasn't defending and no-one could have guessed he would turn things around, Wouldn't have been a bad stoppage if it was stopped at that point but in light of Mir's comeback, Dorea's comments weren't necessary.

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I think its evolved into a lets boo Rashad thing, even though he seems like one of the most likeable people in MMA in interviews

agreed...and Rashad seems to play up to it a little now as well. I think it all stems from Matt Hughes incident on TUF where he had a go at Evans for showboating, he's been doomed from that point on.

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Jones is an exciting fighter. I've always struggled to like him as he's dominated a couple of my fave elite wrestlers (Hamill/Bader) and he's seemed cocky especially in the whole Rashad fallout.

His last two title defences have really impressed me though. His choke on Machida against the run of play was facinating and his structured, breaking down of Rampage leading to the rear naked choke was something to behold.

He's being well marketed and pushed by the UFC but as some of you have said that needs to relate back in PPV buyrates and fan response.

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