MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[Egg Shen]

meant to ask this a few weeks back but forgot...

 

bit of fantasy matchup, who would have won:

 

'98 era Mark Kerr

 

or...

 

'09 era Brock Lesnar

 

 

fire away...

 

* take out any consideration of Mark Kerr's drug-use, just go from a fight standpoint.

[jimufctna24]

Ha!

 

I was going to compare Kerr to Lesnar.

 

It is a tough one, Lesnar fought tougher guys than Kerr. Lesnar is actually bigger than Kerr, 2 inches in height and around 20lbs or so in weight as Lesnar had to cut down in 2009 I believe, Kerr according to Wiki (so maybe not the best source) would be around 263lbs. Brock was a natural Heavyweight with his frame, Kerr wrestled at 190lbs in college, his body was never designed to have that much bulk to it.

 

Lesnar wrestled at a higher level than Kerr, now that did not stop Shane Carwin who wrestled at the same level as Kerr causing Brock problems. However, Brock in 2009 had the advantage of having a more advanced training regiment and also even with his limited boxing still had better striking than Kerr.

 

I will go with Brock, but Brock in 2009 was a updated version of Kerr and the monster Kerr could have been if he kept himself on the straight and narrow.

Edited July 19, 2012 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

Yeah I'd go with Brock aswell for the same reasons. Kerr was a fucking monster though in his day, scary freak of a man. Who knows with a fight like that, if they were both at their physical peak and allowed to juice themselves up with whatever, under Pride rules with the knees on the ground. Jesus. Anything could happen in that one.

 

I am not sure he would have won out of Silva and Rutten at that stage.

 

Silva was just entering his prime and Bas was coming of a long layoff, Bas was never a big Heavyweight and would fight at 205lbs if we could bring the 25 year old version back in a time warp.

 

Bas was saying he was actually in top shape at the time and was training regularly even though he was retired. He was saying he was hitting the pads with such force at the time that the guy holding them was having a lot of pains in his arms

 

Fuck knows? You'd think Wand would win based on the form he was in back then but Wand never really handled great technical strikers too well. And Bas had technique and power. Wand was a killer back then but I really don't know. Would have been a great fight though.

 

despite his losses to Ken Shamrock early in his career he was a better fighter than him by the time he hung up his boots. Bas would have destroyed him in 2002 if that fight would have happened and that is a compliment, Ken was not that much of a spent force before the first Tito fight.

 

Bas mentioned this on the podcast. The way Bas told it, when Pride signed Ken Shamrock, which was in 2000 I think, Bas wanted to fight him and offered to come out of retirement to avenge his losses. Shamrock turned it down because they'd already fought twice and he was 2-0. Which is understandable really. But Bas said those fights he lost to Shamrock were what made him go on to learn grappling and become a better fighter. He was a different beast by 1998/99. I think he would have crushed Shamrock if they'd fought a third time, and I think Shamrock knew that deep down.

 

Bas vs Shamrock 3 in 2000-02 would have been a good fight though I think. Shamrock at that time had spells where he looked decent again, the Fujita fight (before his odd forfeit) was one of his better career performances, and he went the distance with Frye in a good fight.

 

Bas did beat Kevin Randleman, in a fight I have never seen but heard he won a rare points decision by being on the bottom and doing damage that way.

 

That's a fight that really divides opinion. Probably the first really highly disputed decision in UFC history. I haven't seen it for a bit but I remember thinking Randleman should have won it. To be honest though, I didn't think it was quite as bad a robbery as most people seem to. From what I remember there were pretty large spells of the fight in the latter stages where Randleman would get takedowns but do absolutely nothing with them and Bas was working from bottom with strikes and stuff. Tricky one to score but I thought Randleman was more dominant for longer periods and Bas didn't do quite enough damage to warrant the decision for me.

 

I might watch that again soon actually, because I can't remember who I gave what rounds to. I might have it different now.

[Magnum Milano]

Bas did beat Kevin Randleman, in a fight I have never seen but heard he won a rare points decision by being on the bottom and doing damage that way.

 

That's a fight that really divides opinion. Probably the first really highly disputed decision in UFC history. I haven't seen it for a bit but I remember thinking Randleman should have won it. To be honest though, I didn't think it was quite as bad a robbery as most people seem to. From what I remember there were pretty large spells of the fight in the latter stages where Randleman would get takedowns but do absolutely nothing with them and Bas was working from bottom with strikes and stuff. Tricky one to score but I thought Randleman was more dominant for longer periods and Bas didn't do quite enough damage to warrant the decision for me.

 

I might watch that again soon actually, because I can't remember who I gave what rounds to. I might have it different now.

I've not seen it for several years at the least, but in the brief notes I have, I described it 'as an absolute robbery' while Dan Miragliotta (with hair) is one of the judges who award the fights to Rutten. From memory, I have a feeling that this was in the days when the UFC didn't have the traditional three five-minute rounds, and it was when they had three minute overtime periods (or something like that).

 

When I'm home I might dig out the Observer and see what Meltzer had to say about it.

[jimufctna24]

I may go with Bas I can agree it may be a good style matchup for him, but he would have been 37 by the time they fought. He is not the sort to bullshit so I can believe he would have been in decent shape.

 

If Randleman (a decent wrestler who was a blown up LHW) could take him down, then maybe he would have struggled with big Heavies like Coleman and Nog.

 

At 205lbs he could have been a force in Pride, if he beat Wand I see no reason why he could not handle Saku, Rampage or Metzger at that stage of his career.

 

Kerr is someone I would have loved to see fight Fedor if he was at 100% and have Bas in his his corner. There is a chance Kerr would be too strong, Coleman could not beat Fedor with his power, but Kerr may have been even more of a beast.

 

Fedor has a great legacy and beat the best of his ear, Kerr and maybe Bas are the only two missing scalps I would have like to see him try and take.

Edited July 20, 2012 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

I've not seen it for several years at the least, but in the brief notes I have, I described it 'as an absolute robbery' while Dan Miragliotta (with hair) is one of the judges who award the fights to Rutten. From memory, I have a feeling that this was in the days when the UFC didn't have the traditional three five-minute rounds, and it was when they had three minute overtime periods (or something like that).

 

When I'm home I might dig out the Observer and see what Meltzer had to say about it.

 

You're right Magnum. I watched the fight again tonight. They had a straight 15 minute round followed by two 3 minute overtime periods. I think this fight was actually a big part of the reason they went with the 5x5 minute rounds actually. Bas/Randleman was at UFC 20 and by UFC 22 (Frank Shamrock vs Tito Ortiz), they'd implemented the 5x5s.

 

As for scoring, I still thought Randleman won after watching it tonight. As I said before he did do little damage late in the fight but I don't think Bas did quite enough on bottom to steal it. And Randleman did a lot of damage early on in the fight which should have counted more I think.

 

Side note on this fight, little thing I noticed after the decision was read out. Genki Sudo (with long hair) was in Bas' corner, you see him after the fight looking very happy. I knew Genki and Bas had trained together before but I didn't remember seeing him on this.

 

skip to about 3:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbmFF6sjEBo

 

That is Genki isn't it?

Edited July 20, 2012 by wandshogun09

[jimufctna24]

I read this on Wiki so it could be bollocks, but Bas vacated his Heavyweight belt to move down to Middleweight (195lbs at the time I believe) but then got the injuries that made his retire in training.

 

Would have loved Tito vs Bas or Frank Vs Bas in that era.

 

Bas looked much more cut up in the video above, I have not seen the full fight but will watch it at some point to give my opinion. I addition to Genki check the obese guy that Randleman walks past at 3.40 jesus.

[wandshogun09]

Haha yeah, I could be wrong but pretty sure that morbid mountain of flab is Emanuel Yarbrough (of UFC 3/getting-Karate-chopped-to-fuck-by-Keith-Hackney fame).

 

On the subject of Bas, here's another great fight that was in the works but didn't come off..

 

Bas Rutten vs Randy Couture

 

Randy talked about this in his book. Randy vs Bas for the UFC Heavyweight title was supposed to headline the Ultimate Brazil card in Oct 98. But Randy got into a contract dispute with SEG when they wanted to pay him less than what his contract stated he would get. So he left the UFC and went to fight in Japan for a bit.

 

That left the UFC title vacant which is when they set up that four man mini tournament to crown a new champion. With Bas, Tsuyoshi Kohsaka, Kevin Randleman and Maurice Smith taking part.

 

So that's what led Bas to the title. Pretty sure I remember Bas even announcing to the crowd on an early Pride show that he was set to fight Randy in the UFC and hoped to fight in Pride in the future.

[jimufctna24]

That will be him, looked familiar.

 

Random rumor from the past: Keith Hackney was strongly rumored to be on TUF 3, it was on MMA Weekly and everything at the time.

 

I recall that mini tourney, I have UFC 19 on copy when Randleman beats Maurice Smith. I would favor Couture over Rutten, Couture was a better wrestler than Randleman, so if Randleman gave Bas that much trouble Couture would do more.

 

Wrestlers were bad match ups for Bas it would seem based on that fight. I like Bas so much I feel bad even picking against him in fantasy, he is the one guy who seems respected and liked by everyone in MMA, fans, media and fighters. No one slags him to my knowledge, even when he slags others.

 

Ok fantasy match up, one that was actually on the table

 

Mark Coleman vs Royce Gracie in 1996.

 

opinions anyone?

Edited July 21, 2012 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

Id take Coleman in that, unless Gracie could tie him up and tire Coleman out, id take Coleman's brute strength to defeat Gracie's guard. Especially if we're factoring in headbutts.

[wandshogun09]

I think Bas came along about 10 years too early. Imagine him in the mid 2000s if he was in prime condition with no injuries. Him at 205 in either UFC or Pride would be something to see.

 

Bas vs Wanderlei, Rampage, Randy, Tito, Belfort, Sakuraba, even guys like Griffin and Bonnar. Bas vs Chuck Liddell would be a hell of a fight.

 

As for Royce vs Coleman, I think I'd go with Coleman via ground and pound. I know Royce made his name beating bigger men but Coleman would be a step too far back then imo. Just too big, too strong and brutal ground and pound. I think he'd be too big and strong for Royce to lock a sub on. He did have dodgy stamina, even back then but I think he'd have hurt Royce. It would resemble a lion fucking a poodle.

 

Coleman was devastating in them days.

[Magnum Milano]

'The Godfather of Ground and Pound' for me to. I could envision Royce taking a pretty bad beating in this one; Coleman just unloading, Royce refusing to quit and his family refusing to throw in the towel. As Ebb points out, Coleman was one of the few who used to utilise the headbutt when it was allowed, and I'd imagine him in Royce's guard just repeatedly nutting him. In their day the Hammer House guys were monsters, it's just that they never really evolved (kinda how I feel about the Lions Den boys).

 

Re Hackney. I thought it was The Comeback season that he tried out for? Mark Weir was also rumoured/considered for that season.

[jimufctna24]

I think he was rumored for both now you mention it, I think he was going to be at Middlewight on TUF 3 so it would make sense for him to be in on TUF 4 as well, I bet he tried out for both and then just gave up. I remember Weir being rumored as well for TUF 4.

 

I agree on Coleman, and so does the majority of fans, I saw a poll where about 70-80% thought Coleman would win. Good job Royce left when he did, he only got away without a loss due to no judges, most felt Ken Shamrock beat him in their second fight. Royce was only a few years ahead back then.

 

Dan Severn gave Royce trouble before losing but as said Coleman's brutal GnP was on another level to Severn's. It could have been very nasty.

[jimufctna24]

A friend told me today that Brock Lesnar was on RAW last night, brawling with HHH. I remarked that it was only 2 years ago when he was at the very top of the MMA world. As we discussed UFC 100 being 3 years ago I thought I would post about the 2nd biggest card in UFC history.

 

UFC 116 was a great event, commercially it drew 1.16 Million Buys the 2nd biggest buyrate in UFC history , all thanks to Mr Brock Lesnar. The undercard was filled with little name talent, it did not matter though people were plunking down their cash to see Brocky boy comeback from illness.

 

Ignore Dana White, Lesnar is the biggest draw in UFC history, he drew over a million with Cain and Carwin, neither of which were draws in the own right, it was all the Lesnar appeal. GSP does number close to a million and the odd grudge match (Rampage vs Rashad and Sonnen vs Silva) will do a million, Lesnar could draw with anyone. In fact he even drew 800k with Overeem after Cain beat him and tainted his aura, that is serious drawing power.

 

Anyway, Lesnar vs Carwin is a fight where if I told it to people they would think I was stretching the truth. It was a unbelievable comeback, you could not script it and one of my best MMA moments as a fan. Going in I expected Lesnar to have a workman like performance, and win a few rounds before finishing Carwin. I was wrong.

 

It was the first real chink in Lesnar's armor. The Mir sub was put down to him being a novice and more importantly the ref fucking up royally, this time the weakness would provide start to the end of a era I will remember fondly. We learnt that night though that Lesnar is tough and had heart, but we also learnt he cowers when he is on the backfoot. I also believe strongly that his illness tamed the beast, his confidence seemed sapped after it, the power punches that knocked down Herring, Couture and Mir were never seen again. Instead we had a more timid Lesnar who rushed his work (Cain) and simply looked like a beaten man (Overeem)

 

I watched in disbelief when Lesnar came back and subbed Carwin, I went fucking mental! I had the house to myself luckily so I did not hold back.

 

I said recently how dynamic MMA can be and the Heavyweight class is proof of that. In the space of 4 years we went from the Arlovski/Slyvia era ending in 2007, to the Couture comeback year where it was a bit of a free for all when Couture left, then it was the Lesnar/Carwin 265lbs power wrestler era that lasted a good 2 years to 2010, on to the current era of JDS/Cain were Heavyweights are now back to around 230lbs, which has now been present for 2 years and looks to stay for a long while.

 

The face and landscape of the UFC Heavyweight class has changed so much, all 4 faces have very different Champions with different weights and styles to them. I adore JDS, but I will miss the crazy nights of Lesnar, they were something very special.

Edited July 25, 2012 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

yeh it was a special time, Brock Lesnar just has that X Factor, it's something very unique and i doubt we'll ever see that kind of hysteria around a fighter coming into MMA again. There's only a few times my heart has been literally pounding when ive watched MMA, its been Chuck/Tito I, BJ/GSP II, Velasquez/Dos Santos, both Silva/Sonnen fights and during every Brock Lesnar fight, that's gotta say something.