Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 7, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted March 7, 2014 Don't forget, the mighty War Machine got his start at the Lions Den as well. Why did Frank leave the Lions Den? I mean, I can see why but was there ever a statement from him on it? Without being arsed enough to check, I'm sure I read before that Ken was the reason Frank got fired by Pancrase, due to him having a barney at the Pancrase top brass. So he definitely held Frank back a few times in his career. Frank did right to get out. I'd guess he evolved a lot more as a fighter once he hooked up with Maurice Smith and AKA. Guy Mezger was a really good fighter though. He was better than his record suggests, I think. He gave guys like Sakuraba, Liddell and Wanderlei hard fights. I had him winning the Liddell fight before he got knocked out. And that's all under Ken's watch. Who knows what he could've done if he'd trained elsewhere. I never rated Vernon White much. He took a good beating against Liddell in the UFC, I'll give him that. And the Sakuraba fight was really good. Aside from that I haven't seen much but what I did see wasn't much cop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted March 7, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted March 7, 2014 off point quickly but i did listen to War Machine's podcast with Rogan, good listen. War Machine can probably be a nightmare but he comes off sound in that thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Why did Frank leave the Lions Den? I mean, I can see why but was there ever a statement from him on it? Without being arsed enough to check, I'm sure I read before that Ken was the reason Frank got fired by Pancrase, due to him having a barney at the Pancrase top brass. So he definitely held Frank back a few times in his career. Frank did right to get out. I'd guess he evolved a lot more as a fighter once he hooked up with Maurice Smith and AKA. The crux of the matter was that Ken did not think Frank was cut out to be a top fighter. Ken thought he was too soft. The exact reason is covered in Frank's book, I believe it was to do with Frank not running the Lions Den 100% in the way Ken wanted. Frank does admit that he was silly to leave AKA, and could have made more if he would have stayed there. That gives him some credibility in my opinion, as it shows he can admit to making mistakes. The results show that Ken was wrong about Frank. The Tito fight alone shows that Frank was a better fighter than Ken ever was. Ken never had the skill-set to handle a fighter like Tito version 1999. He did not have the technique, brains or cardio to trouble Tito. Frank did. Its a amazing to consider now given how much Tito's stock has dropped, but in 1999 Frank beating Tito was a massive deal. Tito did not lose again for 4 years, and was pretty dominant in those 4 years over world class operators (for the standard of the time). Frank was a fighter who today would be a small middleweight and he beat a fully sized 200lbs man in Tito, that underlines how good Frank was. Only Sakuraba was in his league in the late 90's and early 00's in terms of being an all-round fighter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Milano Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Don't forget, the mighty War Machine got his start at the Lions Den as well. Weren't Tra Telligman and Mikey Burnett Lions Den members? Oh, and big Dan Freeman too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Don't forget, the mighty War Machine got his start at the Lions Den as well. Weren't Tra Telligman and Mikey Burnett Lions Den members? Oh, and big Dan Freeman too... Ah shit, I forgot about the those two. Never heard of Dan Freeman though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 7, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted March 7, 2014 Dan Freeman was the ridiculously muscled up fucker who was telling everyone to eat steak on TUF 3, when they were trying to cut weight. You've almost certainly seen him in the corner during Lions Den fights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Dan Freeman was the ridiculously muscled up fucker who was telling everyone to eat steak on TUF 3, when they were trying to cut weight. You've almost certainly seen him in the corner during Lions Den fights. Ah yes, I remember him. The guy who talked about "putting laps in race cars". I actually felt bad for him, it seemed he picked up the slack when Ken no-showed, even if he was out of his depth. Edited March 7, 2014 by jimufctna24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted March 8, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted March 8, 2014 The Lion's Den is fascinating, the way they run is so dated now but back in the day they were amongst the most elite teams in MMA. It was like the ultimate tough guy gym. War Machine talks a little bit about them on his Rogan podcast, you basically had to go through an initiation to join that team, which was essentially getting beaten up by Ken. Does the Lion's Den still run at all? I need to dig it back out and i know some of you saw it but i highly recommend that Frank/Ken documentary that Spike did last year, i think everyone thought it was gonna be standard Shamrock spiel but it ended up being excellent. Bound by Blood As far as Tito goes, im really glad i caught the tail end of his run, i came on board just after the Ken fight and really induldged in MMA and caught up on stuff between that and the Randy fight, so i got to experience all the hoopla, glad i did. Tito was the man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 8, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted March 8, 2014 I got into MMA in 2005 so Tito's best days were gone by then. But I've never liked him. He was great for the UFC though in those dark days. He was really the only star they had in the late 90s. Chuck was still coming up, he didn't catch on really until 2002. Couture was always in and out. Off to Japan, disputes with the bosses and stuff back then. Rizzo was too inconsistent. Belfort was all over the place. Tito stayed in the UFC, he was their guy. I think Dana forgets that. He credits Griffin, Bonnar, Liddell and Hughes for that time and rightly so. But even before that, Tito was keeping the UFC's pulse from flatlining IMO. The Tito vs Lions Den/Ken Shamrock feud kept them going in some pretty bleak times. Still, I've never been a fan. The squeaky voice, the massive head, the excessive excuse making after losses. And he wasn't often fun to watch in the cage. Even if I'd been watching in his heyday of 2000-2003, I know I'd still have disliked him. He had his moments (although the Tanner KO was a fucking headbutt, something that's rarely ever brought up!), but on the whole he was dull as fuck once the bell rang, more often than not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted March 8, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted March 8, 2014 yeh Tito was never an exciting fighter, his best fights were actually the ones towards the end of his career. I mean Tito even managed to have a boring fight with Wanderlei Silva. During his prime he was so dominant that his fights tended to be pretty boring, takedown and just take fighters apart from inside the guard. Tito likes to talk about how a prime version would beat Jon Jones but there's no way Tito's style was too primitive, fighters have sussed that shit out. The last time Tito had any kind of success with his style was in the Patrick Cote fight at UFC 50. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted March 8, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted March 8, 2014 yeh Tito was never an exciting fighter, his best fights were actually the ones towards the end of his career. Yep. The ones where he got battered During his prime he was so dominant that his fights tended to be pretty boring, takedown and just take fighters apart from inside the guard. Tito likes to talk about how a prime version would beat Jon Jones but there's no way Tito's style was too primitive, fighters have sussed that shit out. The last time Tito had any kind of success with his style was in the Patrick Cote fight at UFC 50. His ground and pound was scary. Whenever someone mentions Tito's ground and pound, the first thing I think of is the first round of his first fight with Forrest Griffin. Fuck me. That was some horrifying punishment and probably the last time Tito looked like his prime self. But yeah, he'd have had nothing for Jones. Literally fuck all. Any era of Tito, injury free, the lot - Jones mops the Octagon with him every single day of the week. Twice on Sunday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Milano Posted March 8, 2014 Share Posted March 8, 2014 Dan Freeman was the ridiculously muscled up fucker who was telling everyone to eat steak on TUF 3, when they were trying to cut weight. You've almost certainly seen him in the corner during Lions Den fights. That's him. Whilst Tito was bringing in the likes of Dean Lister and Saul Soliz as his coaches, Ken bought in his buddy under the guise of 'nutritionist' for the season. He's the lummox in the adidas tracksuit during this confrontation between the two of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted March 8, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted March 8, 2014 ive gotta rewatch that season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted April 3, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted April 3, 2014 Not MMA but I've been watching a bit of old K-1 stuff today, so... MARK HUNT VS JEROME LE BANNER For anyone who only knows Mark Hunt from his MMA fights, you're missing out. His UFC fights with Bigfoot, JDS and Struve were fantastic. His Pride fights with Wanderlei, Cro Cop, Kosaka and Nishijima were tremendous. But he was having wars in K-1 before all that. And his series with Jerome Le Banner might be the best in K-1 history. It's my favourite anyway. If you haven't seen these fights give them a look. I think they're all on YouTube in full. Four absolute wars. Le Banner was a monster in the late 90s-early 2000s. A big, vicious, aggressive bastard who dispelled the theory that the French can't fight. When one of your nicknames is 'Hyper Battle Cyborg' you better be able to back it up. And Le Banner did. His record stands at 77 wins, 22 losses, 2 draws and 1 no contest. 102 kickboxing fights! He stopped two of K-1's all-time greats, Ernesto Hoost and Peter Aerts. Holds wins over Remy Bonjasky, Tyrone Spong, Stefan Leko, Rick Roufus, Maurice Smith and Mike Bernardo. Not to mention knocking the great Don Frye out cold in Pride. He was an animal in his prime. And him and Hunt had four insane brutal fights. Hunt vs Le Banner 1 - July 30th 2000 - K-1 World GP Quarter Finals in Nagoya This was the least epic of their series but still a very entertaining fight. Hunt was game but Le Banner just seemed a bit too much for him at this point. Hunt still got his digs in but Le Banner was able to land more and back Hunt up enough to tee off. Le Banner took a decision. Hunt vs Le Banner 2 - December 8th 2001 - K-1 World GP Quarter Finals in Tokyo Here's where business picks up. Starts off similar to the first fight with JLB picking his shots and seeming to get the better of the early exchanges. In the second round though, he has Hunt cornered and is firing off some shots, and Hunt just starts taunting him and calling him in. Next thing you know he's murdering Le Banner with haymakers and Le Banner is out on his feet and just slumps down against the ref's shoulder. Hunt wins by second round KO. Absolutely mental fight. And considered a big upset at the time, especially the way it ended. Michael Schiavello losing his shit on the commentary when Hunt KO'd Le Banner is still one of my favourite bits of fight commentary ever; "Oh Mark Hunt's taunting him. Saying 'Come on Frenchy, what have you got for me?' Le Banner is not impressed, Mark Hunt showing no respect. Big right hand from Hunt...HE'S ROCKED HIM, HE'S ROCKED HIM, HE'S ROCKED HIM. OH! OH NO! MARK HUNT'S ROCKED HIM! He's gone...OH NOOOO! THE MOST AMAZING MOMENT IN K-1 HISTORY! LE BANNER'S GONE. THE BIG KABOSH, THE BIG KABOSH, THE BIG KABOSH, HE'S GONE! THE CROWD GO BANANAS. HE'S DONE IT. MARK HUNT HAS DONE THE UNTHINKABLE. HE HAS KNOCKED OUT JEROME LE BANNER." So they're 1-1. Hunt vs Le Banner 3 - May 25th 2002 - K-1 World GP in Paris On Le Banner's home ground this time. This is my favourite of their four fights. Even better than the second one. Just a crazy back and forth battle. The second round of this fight is one of the most wild and incredible you'll see in any combat sport. Le Banner knocks Hunt down with a lead right fairly early in the round. After that Le Banner pours on the punishment with some big power shots and combinations. But then Hunt completely cracks him with a right uppercut that totally faceplants JLB. Picture Hunt's walk-away KO of Chris Tuchscherer in the UFC. But Le Banner gets up! He's wobbling all over the place but he's up. And they go to war again. Nuts. They trade bombs until the end of the round where Le Banner just blasts Hunt in the face with a headkick that sends him flying backwards into the ropes and onto his arse. Now Hunt has to beat the count. He does but the doctor stops it between rounds. Le Banner goes 2-1 with a TKO. Incredible fight. Hunt vs Le Banner 4 - December 7th 2002 - K-1 World GP Semi Finals in Tokyo Le Banner takes a different approach here and it works. He just batters Hunt with leg kicks. He mixes in punches, knees and headkicks as well but almost every combo seems to finish with a leg kick. He drops Hunt with one in the second and you can see Hunt visibly grimacing. For Hunt to show signs of pain you know his leg must be fucked. Hunt's always in it though and cracks JLB every now and then to keep him on his toes. Hunt comes out swinging in the third and it's another exciting round. Hunt then decks Le Banner with a big right hand but Le Banner gets up and the final bell goes. A spirited late surge from Hunt but too late as Le Banner takes another decision, winning the series 3-1. What a fucking rivalry though. K-1 or Kickboxing in general doesn't have the fanbase MMA or Boxing have but I'd put the Le Banner vs Hunt series right up there among the best fight series in combat sports along with Gatti vs Ward, Castillo vs Corrales, Barrera vs Morales, Wand vs Rampage, Alvarez vs Chandler, Melendez vs Thomson etc. It's fantastic stuff from start to finish. Believe it or not, there was actually going to be a Le Banner vs Hunt 5. In 2008 under MMA rules! Hunt confirmed it; MMAWeekly: After the demise of Pride and a long lay off, you made your return to K-1. Now you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted April 3, 2014 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2014 Don't forget, the mighty War Machine got his start at the Lions Den as well. Weren't Tra Telligman and Mikey Burnett Lions Den members? Oh, and big Dan Freeman too... Tra One Tit Telligman! What happened to Petey Williams? He seemed to fizzle out after the knockout of Mark Coleman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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