MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[jimufctna24]

Pride's matchmaking was amazing, it was just so random but they put together so many great fights, and they also put together a lot of head-scratchers but i never remember thinking 'i don't wanna watch that'.

Agreed, whether it had artistic merit or not, you had to watch.

 

 Even in 2006 there was the novelty fight of Hunt fighting some Japanese Pro Boxer. 

[wandshogun09]

Yosuke Nishijima. That was a fucking good fight as well. By Pride standards I wouldn't even call that weird matchmaking or a freakshow because it was a pro boxer vs a K-1 striker. If they'd fed Nishijima to a grappler like Nog or Barnett then that would've been more of a case of the old Pride mismatch.

 

Hunt vs Kosaka in the Openweight GP was really good as well.

[Egg Shen]

well, you say that wand. but Nishijima's next MMA fight was against Yoshida

 

The Hunt/Nishijima fight was good though, Nishijima gave up a lot of weight but fuck me that dude could take some punishment...he ended up 0-5 in MMA though.

[wandshogun09]

Oh yeah they went back to their usual methods of feeding him to grapplers after Hunt, but still actually even Hunt, he was a striker at least but he had quite a size advantage on Nishijima, so yeah fair point Jim. Pride matchmaking. Nishijima probably should've been at 185, 205 tops.

 

I really miss Pride though. They didn't let the little matters of weight classes and steroids get in the way. You wonder if Pride was still around from 2007-2014, what mental fights would we have seen by now? Would guys like Chael Sonnen or Brock Lesnar have found their way over there?

 

Fedor Emelianenko vs Brock Lesnar

Wanderlei Silva vs Nick Diaz

Cro Cop vs Chuck Liddell

Wanderlei Silva vs Kimbo Slice

Shogun vs War Machine (stomps and soccer kicks allowed, no, encouraged)

Chael Sonnen vs Nick Diaz

Brock Lesnar vs Minowaman

Bigfoot Silva vs Sakuraba

 

Pride would've found a way to book all of them without a second thought.

 

Actually, with Nick Diaz beating Gomi on Pride's one-before-last show, I wonder who Diaz would've gone onto fight in Pride if the company stayed alive. He'd just conquered Pride's top lightweight. Hendo was the welterweight champ, Diaz vs Hendo? Would he have gone up and fought Wand or Shogun?

[Egg Shen]

anything would have been possible...i actually miss Dream and Sengoku, they wern't quite the same but they took elements of Pride's matchmaking and did some crazy shit. Inoki's capable but he doesn't promote enough shows.

 

One FC is very much a more straight forward UFC style deal with bonus soccer kicks.

[wandshogun09]

Are One FC still doing that confusing 'four point attack' rule for soccer kicks? We were robbed of Arlovski penalty kicking Tim Sylvia's face into the 14th row by that stupid rule.

 

 

Pride would've let that shit (and Sylvia's teeth) fly.

Edited August 28, 2014 by wandshogun09

[jimufctna24]

Someone should write a tell-all book about Pride. I bet you could churn a decent size book about it. The backstage goings on alone would be worth the read.

[Magnum Milano]

Yosuke Nishijima. That was a fucking good fight as well. By Pride standards I wouldn't even call that weird matchmaking or a freakshow because it was a pro boxer vs a K-1 striker. If they'd fed Nishijima to a grappler like Nog or Barnett then that would've been more of a case of the old Pride mismatch.

 

That was a great little card as not only did you have Hunt vs Nishijima but there was a cracking TK vs Mario Sperry fight on the undercard too and you had a superb performance from Overeem to dismantle Kharitanov, add in Rampage, Werdum, Barnett and Little Nog, in fact the only disappointment was the Shogun/Coleman fight where Shogun had to tap in just 48 seconds due to dislocating his shoulder.

 

I really miss Pride though. They didn't let the little matters of weight classes and steroids get in the way. You wonder if Pride was still around from 2007-2014, what mental fights would we have seen by now? Would guys like Chael Sonnen or Brock Lesnar have found their way over there?

 

I there is every chance Brock would have found his way over there.  He would have cost them a ton of money, but he wrestled in New Japan so certainly wasn't averse to going over to Japan, plus he made his MMA debut with Hero's.  So if Pride was still around I think there is a strong likelihood he would have gone there instead of the UFC (if not, they would have certainly made a play for him or tried to sign him).

[Egg Shen]

Coleman/Shogun may have been a disappointing fight, but the brawl afterwards was legendary!

[wandshogun09]

Someone should write a tell-all book about Pride. I bet you could churn a decent size book about it. The backstage goings on alone would be worth the read.

There was actually a book out on Pride.

 

 

Pride: Secret Files.

 

It gives you 30 plans Pride were cooking up that never ended up seeing the light of day. It was only in Japanese but a while ago I found an English translation online of the full book. I only read bits of it so far but it's interesting. Plenty of weird shit in there. I'll try to find it in my bookmarks later and I'll post the link.

 

Here's a bit from it though. Did you know Vader was going to fight on a Pride Bushido show?

 

In the past there had been many pro-wrestlers that had fought in PRIDE, but the appearance of the "emperor" Big Van Vader had also gotten to the very end of preparations. It was a plan that, if it had been made reality, would have had everyone talking - exactly why did it end a phantom?

 

It goes without saying that PRIDE's launching point was Nobuhiko Takada vs. Rickson Gracie. In that fight, the man called "the strongest" within the pro-wrestling world, Takada, would represent pro-wrestling, to challenge the legendary champion Rickson Gracie in a dream bout. In the beginning of Japanese MMA, "measuring the strength of pro-wrestlers" was one of the essential themes. Riding that wave, in 1995, Kendou Nagasaki who was 47 at the time also competed in an MMA ring (and in an event put on by Shooto), so it can only be said that it was an amazing time.

 

At the time, pro-wrestling fans were wrapped up in their fantasies, hoping for "a pro-wrestler that will make waves for us in MMA." And inside that, there was a foreign wrestler that would have allowed them to carry on their fantasies. He had had wild matches in NJPW against Antonio Inoki, Tatsumi Fujinami and Shinya Hashimoto, going on to a fierce battle against Takada in UWF-International, he was called "Gaijin Resura-Saikyou" ("The Strongest Foreign Wrestler") - Vader.

 

Not only was he huge, at 190 cm and 170 kg, he also had the speed that comes with being a pro American Football player, and that was also combined with the agility to pull off moonsaults left and right. As well, he had boxing experience, and there were rumors during his time in WWE like, "He was just too powerful, I couldn't absorb his attacks," so there were plenty of fans at the start of Japanese MMA in the 90's thinking, "If there's anyone that could make it in MMA, it would be Vader!"

 

Vader actually had been booked once for an MMA event. It was U-JAPAN held at Ariake Coliseum in November 1996. The concept (as said at the time) was to pit pro-wrestlers, Yoji Anjou, Mitsuhiro Matsunaga, Katsumi Usada, against MMA fighters in the matchmaking, with Vader's opponent being Kimo in the main event.

 

The matchmaking talks didn't work out in the end, and in his place, Crusher Bam Bam Bigelow fought. He suffered a loss to Kimo a bit over two minutes into the match. The event ended with everyone from the pro-wrestler side, including female Yoko Takahashi, being defeated.

 

Bigelow along with Vader was working in NJPW at the time, and of course he also was a huge and agile top foreigner, but to rank them, Vader was above. They also became tag team champions, but there was a strong impression that Bigelow was just supporting cast for Vader.

 

So, still, pro-wrestling fans believed, "Well, Bigelow was no good, but if it were Vader......." or maybe it was just that he was the only one left.

 

From the start, many pro-wrestlers appeared in PRIDE, but the number that were successful is few, counting Alexander Otsuka, Kazushi Sakuraba, and a few others. A feeling started spreading that it was wasteful seeing these repeated slayings and that, "Pro-wrestling and MMA are just different," and the appearance of pro-wrestlers in MMA started to become less and less of a talking point. Not to mention Mirko Crocop, who had dispatched with a number of famous pro-wrestlers including Kazuyuki Fujita as the "pro-wrestler hunter," peeling the skin right off of the "pro-wrestler fantasy."

 

Vader's name was raised in the second half of 2003. Brought to PRIDE by an unnamed person, he related that Vader was expressing interest in PRIDE.

 

But at this point, Vader was already 48. He was in his 30s when he appeared in NJPW, and he was 38 when he had his match in U-Inter against Takada. It's an age that wouldn't be a problem in pro-wrestling, but to be at the top in MMA, after all, he was too old.

 

As well, besides having absolutely no experience in MMA, adding up his career in NJPW, U-Inter, WWE, All-Japan [Pro-Wrestling], Noah, he must have been dealing with many built-up injuries. Even if they decided suddenly to use him, it wouldn't have been strange at all if he hesitated.

 

At the time, DSE was working to put together Bushido at the exact time as HUSTLE. From that, a plan was formed, "Let's have him appear in HUSTLE first, and then maybe put him in Bushido." There would be no problem for Vader to work in HUSTLE, and Bushido was a place where experimental matches could happen outside of PRIDE, so it made some sense.

 

Like this, Vader came to Japan to face off against Shinya Hashimoto in HUSTLE 1 on January 4, 2004. But then something unbelievable happened. Vader's condition was poorer than anyone had expected.

 

The first thing to strike the staff upon seeing Vader when he arrived in Japan was that he appeared to have difficulty walking down stairs by himself. It is easy for pro-wrestlers to injure their knees, and not a few of them have trouble walking when they get out of the ring. Vader didn't fall outside of that group, and to ask "Are you alright?" must have been natural at the time.

 

But this wasn't the only incident. The day before the match, he was vomiting blood in his hotel room! His body was wearing the scars of a lifetime of damage, and not even thinking about PRIDE, having something happen in the HUSTLE ring would not have been unexpected. In the end, his HUSTLE match went on as planned, but with his poor ability to move, this ended up being a one-time affair, and naturally, plans to use him in PRIDE disappeared.

 

Even in normal circumstances, there have been a number of pro-wrestlers that have died. The year before this as well, 2002, saw Davey Boy Smith die at the young age of 39, leaving behind grieving fans. If it came to be a case of "Famous wrestler, died in PRIDE," PRIDE itself may have been driven into the extinction. It wasn't the case where they could just ignore some problems and put him in anyway.

 

It was like this that Vader's appearance in PRIDE became a phantom, but if it had happened in his 30s when his power was at its peak, in the era before all the theories had been established in MMA, what kind of fight would he have shown us...... Or maybe for it to end just a fantasy was for the best. But looking at Brock Lesnar, who went from the WWE to the UFC, it does make us wish we could have seen the manly figure of Vader in that armor and helmet blowing smoke in the PRIDE ring.

There's also stuff in there about when they nearly got Mike Tyson and were planning to do a world tour with him fighting Fedor and Cro Cop.

 

Plans for Evander Holyfield to fight Akebono on one of the Shockwave shows.

 

Royce Gracie vs Mark Kerr was in the works for an early Pride show but was canceled and ended up being Kerr vs Branco Cikatic.

 

Pride were planning to do a reality show, long before the UFC did TUF.

 

They were going to have Sakuraba fight in a mask and call him 'Saku-Machine'.

 

There's stuff about the Wandy/Krazy Horse backstage fight but I haven't got to that yet.

 

Also stuff about Pride looking at bringing GSP in before the UFC got him, but some high up Pride officials weren't interested in him. Plus that was at a time where they weren't yet doing the Bushido shows so didn't even really have a weight class for him. There was a bit of talk about bringing Kimbo in at some point as well.

 

Pride was mental. Add to all this the Yakuza ties, the president of Pride being found dead in suspicious circumstances. I bet there's tons of shit they were planning or that went on behind the scenes that we have no idea about as well.

[Noah Southworth]

I remember the talk about Vader fighting in PRIDE but I never expected it to ever happen because, as the book says, he was just too banged up. If he needed the money, I could have seen him taking the chance, but he didn't, so there was no real need for it.

 

The Matsunaga match was against Dan Severn. it wasn't a work as such, but they did ask Severn to take it easy on Matsunaga and beat him without hurting him.

[wandshogun09]

Couple of other bits from Pride I didn't know until recently.

 

Matt Serra was going to fight at Pride 9, but his opponent got set on fire by the pyro right before the fight. Seriously.

 

Serra;

"I was originally supposed to fight in Pride. This is funny, the way things work out. I was supposed to fight in Pride, I don't remember the Pride, versus...I'm gonna kill his name, he was a Luta Livre guy, Johil de Oliveira. Tough guy.

 

I was gonna be a Pride guy! That was gonna be my first fight. I was very excited. I was about to walk out and the nice Japanese lady goes, 'don't walk past the X'. You know on the thing, because of the fireworks, the pyrotechnics. So, I guess there was a language problem. So I'm waiting, I'm waiting, I'm waiting. And Johil, I saw it on tape afterwards, he got lit up like a Christmas tree, man. Like his body, he got burnt, he walked in and the pyro came up. Next thing you know I'm waiting and all of a sudden Mark Kerr comes over. And it's funny with Mark Kerr at the time because he was a huge guy but he had the soft voice. And he comes over to Renzo like Renzo's some kind of paramedic, 'Renzo, Renzo you have to come quick. Oh he got lit up and he's on fire.' So Renzo runs and throws water on the guy. Whatever, the fight was off. But I was in really such good shape that I'm like, 'What am I gonna do now?'"

Also, Rogan said on his podcast that when the UFC bought Pride in 2007, they ripped Zuffa off big-time;

 

"The UFC paid $65 million for Pride, and all the contracts were fake. They were all void. They were invalid. None of them were legal. They (UFC) tried to sue the organization. It's kind of funny, this is how crafty they were. While the UFC purchased Pride, the people that were running Pride were starting another organization while they were working for the UFC. So they were running the Pride offices for the UFC in Japan, but then they were running their own organization."

So basically the UFC paid $65 million for the Pride logo and the tape library.

 

Just think if those contracts were legit and carried over, we would have most likely got Fedor in the UFC in 2007. Fedor vs Randy probably would've happened. So Randy probably wouldn't have left in late 2007. Fedor might've still been around to fight Brock in 2008/09. Funny how things play out.

[Noah Southworth]

Call me sceptical, but given Fedor's management, I don't think they ever wanted him in the UFC. They made so many demands that they had to know UFC would never agree to, that I think they were more intent on protecting the image of Fedor as this unbeatable fighter and that meant keeping out of the UFC where they wouldn't have complete control over who Fedor faced. I don't think Fedor minded who he faced but to the people who managed him, or controlled him as some have said, it was all about protecting Fedor as much as possible, and they would never have been able to give Fedor that kind of protection if he was in the UFC.

[wandshogun09]

When did the 'M-1/Vadim is controlling/protecting Fedor' thing start? When did they become such an influence on his career? I mean, it wasn't like they were protecting him in Pride when he was fighting prime Cro Cop who was about as scary a heavyweight as there ever was in MMA. Or prime Big Nog.

 

I think you're right that it was a case of Fedor's hangers on not wanting to give up total control to Zuffa, hence all the co-promotion bollocks. But I'm not sure what the deal was there.

 

I like this Dana quote on Vadim and the UFC/Fedor negotiations;

 

Vadim blew it in every way possible that you could blow it, man. We flew out to that island that I always talk about and we talked. Some island I can't even remember the name of. We met there, we made Fedor...an incredible offer, and M-1 was a part of that thing because I don't know how that whole relationship worked. And if he'd have come in and fought, he would have made a lot of money. Big money, big money. BIG money.

 

He (Vadim) knows. That dude must fucking go to bed every night, and lay down and just motherfuck himself until he falls asleep. Seriously."

I love the last line. Vadim/M-1 took the gamble on pricing themselves out of the UFC, thinking Fedor would just keep winning and they could go through all the money mark promoters, getting paid big bucks to smash less risky opposition. But they didn't bank on Fedor's decline. With hindsight, knowing now what he know about Fedor being on the slide by then, Fedor signing for the UFC in 2009 most likely would've resulted in Brock crushing him or something. But at least they'd have cashed in on the big money. As it worked out Fedor lost anyway for less money than the UFC were reportedly offering (talk was a deal worth $6 million). It backfired big-time. The very thing they were trying to protect Fedor from ended up happening anyway, and then they lost all the leverage and bargaining power they had with the UFC.

Edited September 2, 2014 by wandshogun09

[the_mole]

I think they took over after the Inoki card in 2003 I think.

 

They actually signed a non exclusive contract in 2006, so Fedor could have competed in the States for the UFC (they were going to share Wanderlei in 2006) or a WFA or something, while also competing in Pride, Cro Cop was a much more popular fighter than Fedor in 2005 before they fought and was paid a lot more as well.

 

Interestingly in 2006 Cro Cop became unhappy with some things in Pride, perhaps the likes of Fedor getting a much bigger contract than him, he was talking about jumping to the WFA and abandoning the HW GP, he was wanting paid twice (which nobody else got) if he made the final as well.