MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[Egg Shen]

yeh Telligman was a Lion's Den guy, not sure what happened to Pete Williams, he retired after Frank Mir fucked up his arm. Quick wiki search tells me that Williams actually fought Kevin Randleman for the heavyweight title, i never knew that.

 

Need to dig up some old Pete Williams fights, i've only ever seen him kick Coleman in the face.

[wandshogun09]

I just did a quick google to see if there was anything on Pete Williams. Found this;

 

I read an interview with Ken Shamrock a couple months ago about the Lions Den. He stated that Pete Williams didnt have the heart to continue his career. He just wasnt fully committed anymore and was training/working as a Chef (Thats one Chef you dont want to send the meal back to!). He also commented that Jerry Bolander was not fighting either. But was still involved in MMA via training other people Jerry own Gym.

 

Don't know how true that is, it's from a forum and no link provided.

 

Looking up his record, his last fight was that Frank Mir fight which he lost via that gruesome arm/shoulder lock thing. Went 0-3 to Mir, Ricco Rodriguez and Semmy Schilt at the end of his UFC run. The Schilt fight was pretty brutal as well actually. I remember Schilt just killing him with push kicks to the body over and over again until one just folded Williams.

 

Wiki says his nickname was 'El Duro' or 'The Hard One'. I don't remember that nickname.

Edited April 3, 2014 by wandshogun09

[PowerButchi]

I demand Williams vs "Butch's Best", the Safta Warrior, Big Jon Hess. The man who knew Belfort was a cheat back in 1997.

[wandshogun09]

John Hess vs Andy Anderson from UFC 5 was the original Frye vs Takayama. Hess got a mention on Joe Rogan's podcast with Matt Serra the other week actually. Along with Harold 'If You're Comin' On...Come On!' Howard and Keith Hackney. Hackney tried out for TUF 4: The Comeback as well.

Edited April 3, 2014 by wandshogun09

[Egg Shen]

Serra's podcast was brilliant.

[Egg Shen]

like your lil piece on Le Banner wand. Whilst i loosely followed K-1 back in the day due to it hard to get the footage back then whenever i did ever get to see Le Banner fight he tended to lose, i never really got to see him in his prime, i was always a fan due to his highlight's though, complete monster, nasty fucker too. I'll never forget his KO of Don Frye though, that thing was brutal.

 

Mike Tyson talks about Le Banner briefly in his new book, he mentions that Le Banner was calling him out to fight during Tyson's little promotional run with the company, Tyson says something along the lines of 'if you think i'd ever step into the ring with that monster you must be crazy'.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah I vaguely remember something like that in Tyson's book. I'm sure he'd have been up for it in a pro boxing match, but K-1? Yeah, even the past his prime Le Banner would've ruined him big style. Imagine Tyson vs Le Banner though? Jesus Christ. The staredown alone would've been PPV worthy.

 

It's a shame pro kickboxing has never become really big for a sustained period. It was for a while there in Japan, with K-1 at it's peak in the mid 90s-early 00s, but it never caught on huge in the US. It seems for a combat sport to really last as a big spectator sport, it has to take off in America. Imagine if the UFC didn't come along and MMA started proper when Pride started up? Look at the MMA scene in Japan now. The sport would've fizzled away to almost fuck all. If it gets big in America it spreads worldwide. I'm really hoping GLORY can grow kickboxing into something huge in America. I love their product and there's really no reason why it can't get big if they can create a couple of stars to hang their promotional hat on. High level kickboxing is exciting as fuck at its best. It just needs to have the right people behind it who can market it properly. For all the shit he gets, GLORY needs a Dana White. I don't mean someone who goes around shouting 'fuck' at media scrums, but someone who will basically dedicate their life to making the sport bigger. If they have that and a Fertitta-like money man, the sky's the limit. Because really, they can pick and choose the talent they want. There's really no big rival for GLORY at the moment and they can get pretty much all the best fighters under one roof.

 

It's just a shame K-1 didn't take off in the US in the 90s-early 2000s when they had the likes of Hoost, Aerts, Le Banner, Hug, Hunt, Cro Cop, Sefo etc. Some of those guys could've become huge stars. They deserve to be put on that same bracket as the boxing and MMA stars of that era, but sadly only obsessed twats like us really know how incredible they were.

 

On Le Banner, I was the same. By the time I'd discovered him he was on a bit of a decline. But if you look at his prime years he was only losing to the very elite like Aerts, Hoost, Hunt etc. And he was trading wins with them, it wasn't like they were schooling him. They'd beat him, then he'd come back and batter them, or vice versa. Even in later years most of his losses were to Schilt (who really had his number) with a handful of other lesser guys beating him. For the level of opposition he's faced consistently over such a long career, he's got a hell of a record. With at least one win over almost every true great in the sport.

 

I've seen Le Banner called 'the best fighter who never won a K-1 GP' before and it's hard to disagree.

 

That's another great series Le Banner had actually. The four fights with Peter Aerts. I'm not sure which I'd rank higher between the Le Banner vs Aerts or Le Banner vs Hunt series' actually. I think I've only seen three of the JLB-Aerts fights. I'll have to give them all a look soon.

[jimufctna24]

On the subject of K1

 

Semmy Schilt could have been so much more than he was in MMA. I understand he is now considered with Hoost as the best K1 HW Kickboxer in history, but if he was trained under John Hackleman to fight in MMA, Schilt would be a top 5 HW for sure.

 

Only Cain would I confidently predict would beat him. JDS vs Schilt would be a dream fight.

[wandshogun09]

Speak of the devil

 

 

MMA's answer to The Skyscrapers, Semmy Schilt and Stefan Struve. How many S's do you want?

 

Imagine Schilt with a Cro Cop sprawl? Forget it. You could've shut the mid 2000s UFC heavyweight division down. None of them could've lived with Big Semmy. Arlovski was great but didn't have the chin to hold up to Schilt's shit. Would've been majestic watching Sylvia get a twatting from someone his own size as well. The rest - Monson, Buentello, Eilers, Kyle. Yeah, they might as well have just handed in their notice right there.

 

Schilt was ridiculous. It wasn't all about size with him either (although he really made that work for him as well). He was a really skilled striker and tough as fuck. If you look at his record it's arguably the best resume in all of kickboxing, ever. He's beat everyone. And over multiple eras.

 

He's too old now to make a go of it in MMA. But I wouldn't be shocked to see him pop up as a one off one a show somewhere. Maybe a Japanese NYE event or something, for the right price. If he'd stayed in MMA from around the time of his UFC run in 2000/01 or whenever it was, it'd be interesting to see how his career would've panned out. Because really, I don't see many guys troubling him up until about 2008 when all the wrestlers like Cain, Brock, maybe Carwin came in. And JDS later that year. From 2002/3ish-2008 I think he'd have had the run of the place. Kickboxing was obviously where his heart was though, and I guess he made the right call for him. Better to go out as one of the GOAT kickboxers than just another former UFC champ in a lean era of the division. And wins over the likes of Aerts, Le Banner, Hoost etc trump wins over Sylvia, Arlovski and Monson in anyone's book.

 

Schilt vs JDS would've been awesome.

[jimufctna24]

Agreed, Schilt would dominate the UFC if he would have stayed and committed himself.

 

The first Josh Barnett fight I saw was against Schilt, and how I became a Barnett fan. Schilt despite losing by submission made Barnett a bloody mess. He looked a bit like the Blue Meanie after JBL walloped him.

 

EDIT: I tried searching for picture and found out they Schilt faced Barnett again in 2003, which I did not know. Barnett again won by sub.

Edited April 4, 2014 by jimufctna24

[Egg Shen]

Schilt was a weird one because he was in his MMA prime when i was watching and whilst he was always good he was never really the top guy, whenever he fought an elite name in Pride he tended to lose, last big name he fought was Sergei Kharitanov who put an absolute horrible beating on him. I'm surprised that very little was made of the fact that he transitioned over to K-1 and became so successful, it wasn't the same as Overeem where it was like 'an MMA fighter is killing K-1 fighters', Schilt seemed to just slot in...dunno if you agree with that, but i never heard Michael Schiavallo siding with a pure K-1 fighter when Schilt was in the cage like he did when Overeem was in there.

 

Schilt is clearly one of the most succesful kickboxers ever in terms of honors but i always felt like he came into K-1 when it was in that rebuilding stage (after the freak show era) and he caught all the legends in the twilight years of their careers. Schilt probably would have been as succesful if you'd stuck him in there during the late 90's/early 00's because his style was so effective but he still sits amongst them legendary K-1 fighters for me personally.

 

His fights always tended to be a bit boring too, the guy was like the Klitschko of the K-1 world, but replace that ramrod jab with the front kick. That said, he had an absolute belter with Peter Aerts in 2010. I might be a little harsh there but that's how i remember it, i'll go back and do some Schilt viewing.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, Schilt was out of his depth against the Pride heavies. Fedor and Nog schooled him. The beatdown Kharitonov dealt him was hard to watch. It's a rare thing to feel sorry for a 7ft bloke in a fight but I did watching that. The Pride heavyweight division was a shark tank though. People look back and go 'but Giant Silva, Zulu, Butterbean, Sentoryu Miller etc'. Yeah they had some shite there. They also had Fedor, Nog and Cro Cop - the three best heavyweights by far in MMA at that time. They had Josh Barnett, they had Mark Hunt, Fabricio Werdum, Aleksander Emelianenko, Sergei Kharitonov, Semmy Schilt passed through there, Igor Vovchanchyn. Compare that lot to the UFC heavyweights at the time. You had Arlovski, Sylvia, young Mir - none of which held a candle to Pride's top three, then a huge drop off until Couture came back. You had Buentello and Eilers getting title shots back then. Big lugs like Gan McGee. Ricco Rodriguez had skills but he was so inconsistent fight to fight. Same as Rizzo, who was never really the same after the first Couture fight. From 2001-07, Pride's heavyweights shat all over the UFC's. I think Schilt would've a) given the UFC division a bit of a boost in 2003-07ish - the 'Sylvia Era', shudder. And b) could've ruled in that era. Only Arlovski and later Couture might've troubled him at that point. By 2008 though - Cain, Lesnar, Carwin, JDS came in. That's when Schilt's reign would've died I reckon.

 

And to think, if he'd been a dominant UFC champ in that 2005-06 era, he'd probably be looked at as one of the big names in MMA now. The guys who got big around that time like Liddell, Couture, Tito, Penn, GSP and Hughes stayed prominent until the end of their careers and are looked at as legends now. That's down to their achievements in the cage first and foremost, but they also reaped the benefits of being the UFC's headline acts at a time where the sport was hot coming off the heels of TUF 1. If Schilt had gone on a run at that time, say KOing the Sylvias, Arlovskis, Mirs and Rizzos, guys like that, he'd probably be a UFC HOF candidate now.

 

Still, it's admirable that he fought the best guys in a tougher division in Pride. Schilt vs Cro Cop around 2003/04 in Pride would've been something to see. That'd be a top Pride heavyweight I'd have favoured Schilt to beat. It was grapplers Schilt struggled with most.

 

I liked Schilt's fighting style in K-1. He had some boring fights but I wouldn't compare him to Klitschko myself. The fight with Aerts you mentioned there was an epic battle. I love that fight. His fight with Ray Sefo from the 2005 GP is fun, as is the 2008 fight with Hunt where he stopped Hunt with a spin kick to the gut. The fights I saw him have with Le Banner were exciting as well. He was never the most exciting to watch compared to the likes of Le Banner, Hunt, Aerts, Hug or Cro Cop. Guys like that were rarely ever in anything but awesome fights. But Schilt had his share of really good fights.

 

EDIT: I tried searching for picture and found out they Schilt faced Barnett again in 2003, which I did not know. Barnett again won by sub.

 

I knew they fought again but I've never seen that fight. Barnett fought Hidehiko Yoshida in Japan and hit one of the best belly to back suplexes in MMA history. I need to watch more of Barnett's non-UFC/Pride/Strikeforce stuff.

[Egg Shen]

Whilst we're on the subject of K-1, lets talk about that freak show era (2002-2007ish), K-1 purists will point at that time period in which K-1 died really, but from a personal standpoint i fucking loved it, it's probably the pro wrestling fan in me but i thought it was entertaining as shit...

 

who remembers Hong Man-Choi vs Kaoklai Kaennorsing?

 

 

 

you wanna talk about a giant killer! Kaoklai lost that fight to Choi, but fucking hell that guy would fight anyone, he was even the first and one of the only guy to ever KO King Mo...whilst being over 100lb lighter than him.

 

 

There's always something about seeing someone enter a K-1 or MMA fight wearing traditional Muay Thai dress, always great to see.

 

Remember Malaipet in MMA? only ever had a few fights but he was tough as shit:

 

[Egg Shen]

shipping this over from the MMA news thread, we were talking the Kimo/Legeno supposed fix from Cage Rage in '06. Fixes in MMA fascinate me, i always love to read stories behind them or hear the theories as to why they happen, so let's talk fixes...list em!

[jimufctna24]

Hmmm, it appears you are right that Legeno did not star in Harry Potter until 2008, which would be after his Cage Rage fights. However, he did star in Batman Begins and Snatch. Small time roles? Yes, but they could still sell him as a film star of sorts, especially if he was still active in the game. I do know there was a feeling at the time that Legeno movie star career was the reason why his fights were fixed.

 

The Severn fight was also questioned in some places I believe. For the record, the only one I heard was fixed was the Kimo fight. The rematch he won over that other British guy, and the win over Severn I only heard speculation from forums and media sources that they were fixed.

Edited July 13, 2014 by jimufctna24