MMA: Past Fight Discussion

[wandshogun09]

Jesus! So Butterbean was only in his early 30s when he sparked Bart Gunn at WrestleMania. I don't know how old I thought he was back then but I wouldn't have thought he was only 32/33.

[jimufctna24]

As for Tim Sylvia in his heyday, there were a lot of great moments: The Cabbage beating, the first two Arlovski fights, the Telligman knockout, KO'ing Ricco, shitting himself against Asseurio Silva, the Wes Sims feud! I'm quite ashamed to admit it but i always looked forward to a Tim Sylvia fight back in the day

 

He has provided me with punchline after punchline over the years, so he must be doing something right. I would say he is someone I love to hate, but in 2006 I did bloody hate him, worse than Hughes who I did love to hate and would happily pay to see get beat, Sylvia was someone I just wanted to piss off at one stage.

[jimufctna24]

He did have the longevity though. It's not a question of what people think. It's a fact that from when his MMA career started in 1999 or whenever, he never had a legitimate loss until 2010 when he fought Werdum. Sure there were a few scares and moments along the way but for the most part Fedor wrecked everyone put in front of him for 10 years. That's an amazing achievement whatever the era or opposition, in a sport as wild as MMA. Especially when you factor in that Fedor was an undersized heavyweight as well.

 

I don't think it's fair to hold the losses post-2010 too heavily against him. When people talk about Ali, they don't downgrade him for the Berbick and Holmes losses. Chuck Liddell and Matt Hughes are no less of legends because of their losses at the end either. Every fighter declines eventually. One day Cain will be an old fighter and some big young bastard will be beating him down like Cain did to a battleworn Nogueira. It's the nature of combat sports.

 

Ideally, Fedor would have come to the UFC in 2009 and fought Brock or whoever. But people need to understand, the Pride division was were the best heavyweights were in Fedor's prime. And he fought the two best of that bunch and beat them both.

 

The stuff in your post about the Hunt and Arlovski fights is correct (although I've always thought the Hunt stuff was a bit overblown myself, Fedor was in a bad position but never looked close to being tapped). But he still won those fights. You wouldn't question GSP's greatness because Condit nearly knocked him out. Or Jones because Belfort got him in an armbar. Or Mayweather because he got dropped by old man Shane Mosley. Things like that just happen in fights sometimes. It's how the guy deals with it that tells you what they're made of.

 

I agree with the GSP bit in your post 100%. His dominance has spanned a few eras and he's avenged the only losses on his record in style. He's also fought pretty much every type of fighter there is and often beats them at their own game.

 

When I say longevity, I mean at the peak of his powers. If you look at it he had a very short peak, only 2003-2005. After he broke his hand on Zulu, he did not look the same. In general terms, yes he did have longevity, but his peak was pretty short compared to GSP and Anderson

 

GSP 2006-2012 - 6 years

 

Anderson 2006 -2012 - 6 years

 

Fedor was a decent Heavyweight from 1999-2003, do not get me wrong, but he did not peak until 2003. For example, he did not look great against Semmy Schilt in Pride. GSP looked really good pre 2006, but I am not going to class it as his peak, because he was not quite there yet.

 

I cannot prove Fedor lost it after 2005, its hard to measure, because he barely fought in 2006/2007, and when he did it was in novelty fights against Lindland and that giant K1 guy. But other than Slyvia and the Giant, he had trouble in all of his fights from 2006-2010

 

- Arlovski lighted him up

- Hunt had success on the ground

- Rogers gave him trouble

- Lindland gave him trouble and cut him pretty bad

 

GSP being rocked by Condit is more excusable, as Condit is a top 5 WW. Condit is a better WW, than those above are HW's.

 

Guys like GSP and Anderson may have a few fights like that in their peaks, but not have trouble fight in fight out. I will excuse Fujita almost knocking out Fedor at his peak, because that was a sole blip at his peak.

 

The truth was also, that after Cro Cop in 2005, which was maybe his finest performance, he barely fought anyone of note until Arlovski in 2009. He did not fight the Werdum's or Barnett's of the world to test if he still had it, when he did fight Arlovski, he was getting beat, until Arlovski made a mistake. Fedor at his peak would have not let Arlovski get that much offence in, let alone Rogers or Lindland.

 

Fedor was not protected mind, there were very few decent Heavies around until Lesnar and Carwin turned up, and Mir got into his stride in 2008/2009. JDS and Cain were still a good few years away as well. But Fedor did clearly slow down after 2005, and it was only in 2011 when we finally got to see it catch up to him inside the cage (as I said, the Werdum loss in 2010 could have happened to anyone. so I excuse it)

 

Fedor in 2003-2005 did beat the best HW's in World, and was the best HW in the world. But, it was a shorter reign of terror than some think, the lack of depth in HW between 2003-2008, ensured Fedor could drop his form and keep his aura in tact. He beat Cro Cop and Nog, point blank at their very best, no one else has done that to my knowledge, and for that he is a all-time great HW.

 

But I still feel his legacy gets overstated somewhat, and I fail to see the case for him being the best ever when Anderson and GSP have done so much more, in terms of context and quantity.

Edited November 16, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

But I still feel his legacy gets overstated somewhat, and I fail to see the case for him being the best ever when Anderson and GSP have done so much more, in terms of context and quantity.

 

I was comparing Fedor to Cain originally though, and saying that right now, I'd still rank Fedor as the #1 heavyweight of all time. Slightly above Cain. But Cain has been catching up all the time and if he beats Werdum and say, Barnett, he'd probably take the #1 spot for me. Adding those two names, who are both still top flight heavies, to his resume would push it over the edge.

 

Compared to Anderson and GSP, yeah Fedor's legacy doesn't match that for me either. Anderson and GSP are the two greatest fighters in the history of MMA hands down for me. Jones and Cain are looking like heading into that territory soon as well, depending on what happens over the next few years.

[jimufctna24]

If you would have told me that Anderson, Jones and GSP would all either lose, or win a highly questionable verdict this year, I would said you are barmy.

 

I think Cain is about level with Fedor right now, but that does not mean he will surpass Fedor, he could digress for all we know and end up going on a losing streak. Logic says that will not happen, but as above proves, the improbable can happen in MMA.

[jimufctna24]

After UFC 167, Rashad Evans's resume reads like this over name opponents.

 

Wins

 

Tito

Chuck

Rampage

Chael

Forrest

Bonnar

Thiago Silva

Phil Davis

Bisping

Hendo

 

Losses

 

Machida

Jones

Lil Nog

 

That is some consistency, the only loss that I shake my head at is Lil Nog, he should have won that fight and under-performed. Even then, Lil Nog was ranked in the top 10 at the time, so its not the worst person to lose to.

 

Other than that, he has won when he should have done. The losses to Machida and Jones are forgivable for any 205'er, as Jones version 2012 is the maybe the best LHW to enter the cage. Machida 2009 is probably the most skillful, and without the passive weaknesses he has developed.

 

There is quality in there, he beat T Silva, Forrest and Ramapge where they were either at their best, or close to it. He has won in a variety of ways, from GNP over Chael, to one punch knockouts over Chuck, to grinding out verdicts over Bisping and Phil Davis. He even wins when he performs sub-par like the Hendo bout where he coasted for 2 rounds, then made Hendo look like a club fighter in the 3rd to get the win.

 

The only major 205'ers he has not faced is Shogun, Couture and Gusty, the first two he probably would have beaten, Couture with little trouble, Shogun it depends on what year he faced him, most of the time he would beat Rua though. Gusty might be a tough deal, but we still need to learm more about him.

 

Either way, I believe that Rashad should be ranked higher in the all time stakes than Hendo, Rampage, Wand, Rua and Liddel. He has more consistency and longevity than all of those, and a better resume as well. He does not win in spurts, he puts win streaks together, and keeps a certain standard for a long period of time. Liddel was only a great fighter for 3 years or so, Rampage and Hendo would peak then turn off, Wanderlai tailed off after 2005, and we all know about Rua.

 

I was never a fan until lately, but he is also a great role model for the sport. Very smart and well spoken, he also had the balls to support gay right in public, which is a huge deal for a MMA fighter given the macho culture. A lot of UFC fighters (and fans) are yokels, Rashad is not one of them. A true all time great, that gets underrated in some quarters.

Edited November 19, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

 

Rashad's the man. When I first got into MMA, I wasn't keen on him but over time I warmed to him. I was a fan of Forrest Griffin when they fought and when Forrest hit Rashad and Rashad just smiled and grabbed his own cock mid-fight, I thought 'what a cunt'. I wanted Forrest to wreck him. I rooted for Chuck to beat him before that as well.

 

It wasn't until around the time of the Machida fight where I started to change my mind. Then he suffered his first loss. I'm a curse. Like most though, it was the feud with Rampage where I really became a fan. I went into TUF 10 firmly on Team Rampage, and by the end I was a Rashad fan. Partly down to Rampage being a twat on that season but just as much for how well Rashad came across as well. I was still torn when they fought. The Pride fan in me still hoped for Rampage to return to his prime form, which didn't seem so far fetched in 2010.

 

Since then, I've become a big fan of Rashad. He's actually one of my favourite fighters now, which I'd never have expected back when he was fighting Tito the first time in 2007. And he's not my usual type of fighter I typically support. In Boxing and MMA, I've always liked the super aggressive, balls out, warrior types usually. Nigel Benn, Arturo Gatti, Roberto Duran, Wanderlei Silva, Shogun Rua. Rashad is nothing like that. He's technical and a smart fighter. But he's not what you'd call an overly exciting fighter. He's had his moments but he never really has those great fights.

 

I think it's more that from years of watching him on TUF (both as housemate and coach), the analyst stuff for ESPN and FOX etc, he just seems like a good guy to me. And then when he fights I automatically root for him.

 

He's in a weird spot now though. He's lost a complete one way traffic decision to the current champion Jon Jones, but he's beat pretty much everyone else. There's really only Shogun, Glover, Gustafsson and Cormier. The rest is all rematches. I still think 185 would be an interesting move for him, before it's too late, but he says the cut would be a nightmare because of his arse and legs having too much junk in the trunk or something. Plus his teammate Belfort is in contention at 185 so I'm sure that plays a part in his reluctance to drop down.

[jimufctna24]

Yeah, I was in that boat of being a Forrest and Chuck fan when he fought him, perceptions change though, I now think Forrest is a bit of a bellend, and think Rashad is a decent bloke. I still like Chuck though.

 

I changed my mind this year on him as a person, I stopped disliking him around 2011, and started to like him this year as I have reflected on his career. You would have to be blind or a mentally challenged to not see that Rampage was the dickhead between the two of them in 2009 though. Looking back Rahsad was surrounded by some crown pricks during that season, Nelson, McSweeney and Meathead.

 

As a fighter to watch, I like Rashad. He is not a adrenaline rush fighter, but I appreciate his talent and how he uses it. He is a fighter I find hard to critique, there is not much to say negative about a fighter who has 3 losses, and only one was of them was due to under-performance. You have good taste in fighters btw Wand, all those mentioned I like to watch, they are brawlers in a good technical sense, not in a toughman/Cage Rage sense.

 

He should on paper beat Glover, but Cormier is a bad style match up if he could not keep the fight open and box.

Edited November 19, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

This hasn't really been touched on but;

 

 

It's been a bumpy start but it seems that things are finally picking up for the Blackzilians. They formed in 2011 after a handful of fighters, including Jorge Santiago and Gesias 'JZ' Calvancante left American Top Team. Long story short, they and their manager set up camp in Boca Raton, Florida and formed a team of their own. It started off very small and didn't really start to grow much until Rashad Evans had his much publicised split with Greg Jackson's camp in New Mexico due to the rift with Jon Jones. Rashad joined the team in Florida and they became known as the Blackzilians. Because their original members were all black or Brazilian you see.

 

Anyway, when you look at the talent in this camp, it was expected that they'd go on a dominant run in MMA.

 

 

Just look at this all-star lineup;

 

Rashad Evans - Winner of TUF 2 as an undersized heavyweight. Former UFC Light Heavyweight champion. Wins over Chuck Liddell, Rampage Jackson, Dan Henderson, Tito Ortiz, Forrest Griffin, Chael Sonnen and Michael Bisping.

 

Vitor Belfort - Former UFC champion. Only 2 losses in the last 6 years and they were to Anderson Silva and Jon Jones. KO wins over Dan Henderson, Michael Bisping, Luke Rockhold, Wanderlei Silva and Rich Franklin.

 

Alistair Overeem - Former DREAM and Strikeforce heavyweight champion. K-1 Grand Prix winner. Beat Brock Lesnar and Fabricio Werdum.

 

Eddie Alvarez - Current Bellator lightweight champion. One of the most exciting fighters in the sport. Had FOTY contenders with Joachim Hansen and Tatsuya Kawajiri in DREAM, and twice with Michael Chandler in Bellator.

 

Tyrone Spong - One of the top kickboxers in the world with a 73-6-1-1 record. Currently 2-0 in MMA so far. GLORY champ. Beat the likes of Peter Aerts, Melvin Manhoef and Remy Bonjasky.

 

And as well as them you have MMA talent such as;

 

Anthony Johnson

Miguel Torres

Thiago Silva

Cezar Ferreira

Siyar Bahadurzada

JZ Cavalcante

Jorge Santiago

Abel Trujillo

Michael Johnson

Ryan Jimmo

Matt Mitrione

 

Kickboxers;

 

Daniel Ghita

Robin Van Roosmalen

Rico Verhoeven

 

BJJ;

 

Braulio Estima (3rd degree black belt, ADCC World champion)

Gilbert Burns (World champion black belt)

 

And this fucker's been in the gym as well...

 

 

Guillermo Rigondeaux. Two time Olympic gold medalist and considered one of the greatest amateur boxers ever.

 

Not to mention the coaching staff, which has two more Olympic gold medalists in Kenny Monday (wrestling) and Pedro Diaz (boxing). And there's Henri Hooft the head striking coach. MMA legend Mario Sperry was a big part of the camp at the start as well.

 

An unbelievable collection of talent in that gym. So almost whatever they did wasn't going to meet expectations in some ways. After two years plugging away though, things are starting to click for the Blackzilians. They've had a lot of growing pains and criticism, particularly aimed at Alistair Overeem and his fall from the top of the sport. Rashad was looking very lackluster until recently as well.

 

But in the last month alone

 

 

Vitor Belfort became the first man to stop the brick-chinned Dan Henderson with strikes. Lifting him clean off the floor with an uppercut before sealing the deal with the headkick you see above. This comes after a headkick KO over Michael Bisping in January and a spin kick KO over Luke Rockhold in May.

 

 

Rashad Evans pounded out Chael Sonnen in a round on one of the biggest UFC cards ever.

 

 

Eddie Alvarez evened the score with Michael Chandler. Avenging his 2011 loss and regaining the Bellator lightweight title in one of the best fights of 2013. An epic 5 round bloodbath.

 

Things are finally looking up. And I'll be rooting for most of these guys to keep it up. Rashad, Vitor and Alvarez are fighters I usually support anyway. And I'll be hoping for Overeem to get back in the win column against Frank Mir in a few months.

 

Maybe the most interesting Blackzilian for me though, is Tyrone Spong. I really think he could be a big star in MMA in the next couple of years. But it depends on if he wants to pursue MMA full time or flit between that and kickboxing. If he goes 100% with MMA, with the guys he has to work with in Florida and his own talent, the sky's the limit with him.

 

Edited November 24, 2013 by wandshogun09

[Egg Shen]

it's a ridiculous camp...surely it's the most loaded camp of legit top talent ever assembled? There was a point earlier this year when people were questioning if the Blackzilians were slipping (few losses, people were saying to many chiefs and not enough indians), they've rubbished that in recent months though.

 

Brutal team. I had no idea Rigondeaux was with them :o

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, I wasn't aware that Rigondeaux was training there until fairly recently either. Here's an article from a few months back on it;

 

TWO-TIME OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST AND CHAMPION GUILLERMO RIGONDEAUX JOINS THE BLACKZILIANS, BECOMES THE TEAM

[jimufctna24]

Melvin Guillard is there as well, or has he left?

 

Edit: Yeah he has left, now at Grudge.

 

It has grown into a great camp, only Overeem out of the main players is now not performing well, and that may not be because of the camp he is at (more his own arrogance)

Edited November 26, 2013 by jimufctna24

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, Melvin left a while back, I think partly due to differences with Mario Sperry but it might have been someone else. Bigfoot was there early on as well, but he left when Overeem came in because he wisely anticipated that they'd likely cross paths in the future. Which they did as we know.

 

With Overeem, I don't know if there's much that can be done differently now. He's still going to be strong in the striking, offensively there's probably no more devastating heavyweight in MMA. But they can't change his mind. You can go right back through his career, he's always been a frontrunner. People say Vitor Belfort was a guy who would wilt if the fight didn't go his way early and that used to be the case, but Overeem is the posterboy for that and always was IMO. You can trace it right back to the Pride days where he just melted against Little Nog when Nog wouldn't go away. Right through the Shogun fights where Shogun weathered the storm twice and stopped him twice. To the second Kharitonov fight in HERO'S where he literally turned his back and ran from Sergei when the going got tough. And we know what happened against Bigfoot. When you mention Overeem's cockiness, that's the fight where it was most evident. In the build up he clearly thought it was in the bag. No-one told Bigfoot.

 

In fairness, the Travis Browne fight wasn't down to any of that. He didn't seem cocky at all coming into that (he had no reason to be coming off getting twatted by Bigfoot), and he didn't quit (it didn't go long enough). He did what he always does and looked like a killer early, seemed to gas after about 3 minutes (there's no other logical explanation for eating about 10 of those front kicks and still not putting his hands up to block the one that KO'd him) and Browne put him out.

 

Theoretically he's getting the absolute best possible training in Florida. He's got big top level kickboxers to spar with, world champion BJJ artists to roll with, an Olympic gold medal winning wrestler, fantastic boxing coaches on hand, all around MMA greats Rashad Evans and Vitor Belfort are around. He's giving himself the best opportunity to turn his career around. They can work on his stamina issues and hopefully keep him focused, but it seems like a mental problem more than anything. I think he wins the Mir fight, so maybe that will restore some confidence. But I don't think he's got enough about him to go much further than that. A win over Mir will put him against a top heavyweight again. And I can't see him coping with any of Velasquez, Dos Santos or Barnett. I'd fancy Werdum in the rubber match as well.

[jimufctna24]

Pretty much agree, there was a Heavyweight boxer on the Pac-Man undercard with the same problem, great frontrunner, but quit on his stool when the fight became a debate instead of a lecture, so to speak. I think he beats Mir, and I would say he stacks up well with Werdum on paper, but given the second fight they had and the improvement Werdum showed since then, I would pick Werdum.

 

Bit off-topic.

 

As most posters on here are both Boxing and MMA fans, how do you think they compare in 2013? Its a bit different from 2007 when people felt Boxing was dying and MMA was going to swallow it up (remember Rogan on ESPN). Outside a few barbs from Tyson Fury and Bisping, they seem to coexist quite well, even in 2009 the likes of Arum and Floyd could not avoid MMA conversation, its different today.

 

For myself, I watch just as much as both these days, I am in the center of casual and hardcore of both, in the sense I only watch the big and relevant fights in both (I only watch UFC cards, and big boxing events that are either on SKY or HBO PPV) but I read about both sports a lot, and follow them still to a high degree.

 

I have come to accept that UFC in England has limited appeal in 2013, a friend who went the last show told me about the flock of empty seats, and the ticket hand outs were frequent. The BT ratings have been bad also. In England and America Boxing is thriving it seems, there was hardy any seats over the weekend at Groves vs Froch and you could not escape the promotion or hype anywhere. Floyd vs Alverez almost broke the PPV record this year as well.

 

That is not to say MMA is dying, its still very healthy as a business and as a interest, I had a conversation with a friend last week about how boxing and he wondered if my passion for boxing in current times had left me jaded with MMA, I answered no. Big time fights like GSP vs Hendricks and Anderson vs Weidman still give me that feeling, that real big fight feeling that makes MMA and Boxing so special to follow.

 

The live experience this past weekend was the best I have ever had for a gig, WWE, UFC or Boxing event. It felt in the arena something very special with Groves vs Froch, the fight and the occasion. That is one difference, as I do not live in Vegas I do not get the hype plastered everywhere and the in-person thrill I got on Saturday.

 

UFC live in the UK is still, UFC lite in many ways, its not promoted anywhere mainstream and whilst the atmosphere can be friendly, its not on the same level as big time boxing shows in the UK. Its a problem unlikely to be fixed, as it seems UFC has hit a ceiling a bit lately in terms of coverage in the UK. It is not as rooted in our culture as boxing.

 

So for me they may as well be the same interest with different rules, I like them both for very similar reasons. I always liked boxing even when MMA was really growing, its never been either/or for me, it is both.

 

Over to you guys.

[Egg Shen]

When your a fan of both it's hard to comment really because to me they both co-exist happily next to each other, it's probably a question to ask someone who predominantly takes sides in the whole arguement.

 

Having said that, Boxing has definitely been brilliant this year. In all my years of being a fan (less time than MMA if you consider being a diehard fan), 2013 has by far been the best, it finally seems like promoters have realised that making the fights people want to see benefit's everyone.

 

What i've found with MMA is tha it's starting to flatten out like Boxing, by that i mean there was a time that people saw the name 'UFC' and they were on board, now it seems like people's interests are only being peaked when the UFC puts on a genuinely massive card or fight, the same as it with Boxing. I guess that's only natural, the UFC went through a fad stage and all fads end.

 

Bottom line though is, if you're a combat sports fan in 2013 you've been fucking spoiled and nobody can complain.