Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted February 5, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted February 5, 2014 (edited) Yeah the mental thing seemed to be the big obstacle for him. I wonder if he's still with the woman he was seeing in the documentary. I'm guessing not, that seemed like a toxic relationship if ever I've seen one. The bit where he comes out of rehab and is trying to get clean and she's going around getting wrecked shows how ill-suited they were. Coleman didn't want her around backstage. You could tell Bas couldn't stand her as well when she kept hanging around while they were trying to train and stuff. Bas seemed to really try to help Kerr and keep him focused on the training camp but he ended up fucking off again with the girlfriend. Then he lost to Fujita, who was a decent fighter for his time but not a guy Kerr should've been losing to. He's probably the biggest 'what if?' career story in MMA history for me. Him and Arona. Edited February 5, 2014 by wandshogun09 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I would also guess Kerr got away from that women eventually. It was annoying to watch Bas be the voice of reason, yet fall on deaf ears. I still think today, Bas could offer a lot as a trainer. A theory about Arona I read from Jordan Breen is that his style would have not translated as the 205lbs weightclass evolved. That might be a tad harsh, but I know what he means. Machida, Rashad, Chuck and Rampage would be nightmare style matches for him, Hendo would probably beat him as well. Arona might have had to go down to 185lbs, which could be another potential "what if". Soku who beat Arona is more of a "what if" in my opinion, given his physical attributes. All bets are off now, in the era at 205lbs where you have to be a lanky Heavyweight to succeed (I.E, Jones and Gusty) the landscape has changed. most fighters did well at 205lbs between 2005-2007 would now have to go to 185lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted February 6, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted February 6, 2014 Arona was the one great Pride fighter who never went anywhere when the promotion folded. As for Kerr, the guy's one of the most physically gifted heavyweights to ever compete in MMA, he might have been medically enhanced, but it was during a time when everyone was jacked off their tits, and there was a genuine athletic gift behind it all. Kerr's major problem was always the mental aspect of everything, he clearly had his issues but i think the simple fact was Kerr wasn't really a fighter, he was a competitor no doubt, but he seemed to be a guy who never liked being in there when the going got rough. He basically did a Brock Lesnar before Brock Lesnar showed up. Kerr's early performances remain some of the most frightening in the sports history though, guy was a beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted February 7, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 Yeah there would have been some hard match ups for Arona style-wise in the UFC. But I do think his style would have benefited from the addition of elbows and the cage. If he'd came in straight after Pride closed down, I think he could've done alright to be honest. Liddell stylistically would be a bad match but he was on the decline by 2007/8. I still think Chuck would beat him though. Rashad wasn't anywhere near the fighter he became later. Tito took him to a draw and if they met in 2007 I'd give Arona a decent shot. Rashad didn't really put everything together until late 2008. Rampage and Machida would've fucked Arona up in that period. I'm not sure he'd have fought Machida though. The rest of the guys around that time, I could definitely see him beating Wanderlei, Shogun (depending when they fought), Forrest, Jardine, Tito etc. And he did already beat Hendo in Pride. I think if he'd have come in right after Pride died, and got with a good camp (I think he'd have wound up at Black House), he'd have been a top tier 205er. He was still only young as well. He was only like 27/28 when Pride shut up shop. If he'd joined a good camp he could've improved his striking as well. He'd be a handful in that era. Once Jones came along though, it would be a wrap. He basically missed his window. He still pops up now and then hinting at a return and wanting to meet with Dana but I think he missed his chance. Arona wasn't the most exciting fighter in his prime, so I doubt Dana would be interested in him at all now he's mid 30s, with dodgy knees and has barely fought in the last 7 years. He'd have to go on an impressive run in other companies to even get on the radar now. Maybe Arona doesn't care. Maybe his heart wasn't in it and he's happy now. But I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up regretting wasting his prime years when it's too late. He's way more of a 'what if' than Sokoudjou for me. Sokoudjou had all the physical tools but he'd fold if the opponent survived his early attack. I don't think there's anything he could really have done to change or improve besides have a brain transplant. Arona was considered among the best 205ers in the sport and just fucked off in what should have been his prime fighting years. Who knows, maybe he hadn't even reached his prime yet. I think we saw all there was to see out of Sokoudjou, but Arona just walked away at 28. I've just thought of maybe the biggest 'what if?' fighter though. Bigger than Kerr and Arona for me. Rickson Gracie. Walked away at 11-0 in 2000. He was 42 by then so he wasn't going to be fighting long anyway but there's still unanswered questions. He never fought in the UFC for one. MMA came along too late really I suppose. By the time UFC 1 took place, Rickson was already in his mid 30s. But after a couple of fights in Pride he stopped fighting in 1998. Then came back for one more fight against Funaki in 2000 and retired for good. There's a bunch of interesting fights he could've had in that 1998/99 inactive spell. Fights with Bas Rutten and Frank Shamrock could've been awesome. Even Ken Shamrock would've been fun. And the big one was the Sakuraba fight. That was the one the Japanese would've loved. Especially after Sakuraba went through Royce, Renzo, Royler and Ryan. Rickson coming back then to avenge the Gracie name would've been huge. Sakuraba and Royce's 90 minute fight was in May 2000 as well. The same month Rickson came back and fought Funaki. Just imagine if Pride could've set that Sakuraba vs Rickson fight up for New Years Eve at the end of 2000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted February 7, 2014 Author Paid Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 the thing that would have gotten Arona attention apart from his rather bland fighting style was his attitude, he'd have stirred shit up nicely. I actually need to go back and watch some Arona fights, it's been awhile. As for Rickson, there's running jokes amongst message boards regarding the guy (Rickson by Armbar!) and he's like the ultimate cog in the Gracie propoganda machine but he was apparently legit and was the king of the family. Joe Rogan is a guy who'd usually shit all over that kinda thing but he talks of how highly Rickson is thought of in Jiu Jitsu circles. I some ways im glad he dipped his toes in and got out, i love the mystery and legacy he leaves behind. Who knows how much of it was true? but it makes for some fascinating stories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 He's way more of a 'what if' than Sokoudjou for me. Sokoudjou had all the physical tools but he'd fold if the opponent survived his early attack. I don't think there's anything he could really have done to change or improve besides have a brain transplant. Arona was considered among the best 205ers in the sport and just fucked off in what should have been his prime fighting years. Who knows, maybe he hadn't even reached his prime yet. I think we saw all there was to see out of Sokoudjou, but Arona just walked away at 28. Paulie Malignaggi was on Ringside this week, and stated that some fighters can get passed the whole "wilting" thing that Lesnar, Soku and others are accused to be cursed with. He gave the example of Victor Ortiz seemingly getting over it in the Berto fight, but also felt Ortiz's last knockout loss was a case of him lacking heart and that he coud have gotten up from the knockdown that stopped him. Rickson is a odd one. In 2006, they asked Frank Trigg if Rickson could beat the top fighters in Pride. Trigg said he thought Rickson would be Sakuraba at that stage, but felt Cro Cop and Fedor would batter him (Rickson had done a interview around that time saying that he saw "holes in Fedor's game he could exploit) Depending on who you talk to, Rickson is either a myth created by the Gracie family to keep the mystique present, or the biggest "what if" in MMA history. Even after the Sakuraba loss, some still believed in the Royce Gracie myth (excellently described by Matt Hughes in 2006 as "as he needs to do his throw his hands up and you are beaten) Rickson is unbeaten in MMA, but I have heard stories he lost in grappling matches off the record. The Gracie clan kinda changed from saying "well what does him winning prove" due to his size and ability (Rickson was bigger than Royce, and the Gracie's wanted to show their style was the factor in the mid-1990's) to keeping the myth in check at all cost. I would speculate there was a good reason they did not risk throwing Rickson in there with Sakuraba in the early 00's when "The Gracie Hunter" was in his pomp. I am a cynical so and so, and see Rickson as more of a myth than a potential threat to the likes of Fedor. He could have kept the myth going longer than Royce, but the game would have caught up to him quickly. Royce was probably lucky to get out of dodge before Coleman and Kerr turned up in the UFC, Royce was only ever a few years ahead of the pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted February 7, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted February 7, 2014 Oh I wouldn't have expected Rickson to fare well against Fedor or Cro Cop. Like I said, he was too old by the time that lot hit the big stage. He was from a different generation. That's why I was mainly on about guys he realistically could have fought like Sakuraba, Shamrock and Rutten. I don't think he's a myth. Too many guys in the sport, who would know a myth, really rate Rickson. But his era was at a time where the internet wasn't so big, so unless you were on TV a lot of things were based on hearsay. And a lot of Rickson's fights would pre-date the UFC or the internet. Guys like BJ Penn and Cain Velasquez have had that kind of aura before they even debuted but with them the sport was growing and they were young so they had time to prove the hearsay right. By the time Rickson was in a position to prove his hearsay right he was in his mid to late 30s. He was already on borrowed time as a top fighter. It just didn't work out timing wise for Rickson. The sport was growing as he was winding down. Like I said, he was 42 in 2000. Fedor didn't reach the Pride title until 2003 when Rickson would've been 45. He'd have had no business in there with an animal in his prime like Fedor. I doubt he was ever serious about fighting Fedor. He often used to just throw comments out to keep his name out there. Like Lennox Lewis does today whenever the Klitschkos fight. When you hear how people in the sport talk about Rickson, he's pretty much the consensus King of the Gracies and guys like Joe Rogan and Matt Serra can't speak highly enough of him. I remember Serra seemed quite pissed off when Marc Lemon was questioning Rickson's credentials on TUF 4. He's a huge 'what if?' for me. That doesn't mean I think he'd have gone unbeaten forever or any of that nonsense. Just a 'what if?' What if he fought Sakuraba in 2000? What if he fought a serious striker like Bas? A great all rounder like Frank Shamrock? What if he fought in the UFC? He's a fascinating guy as well. Choke was a good glimpse into his weird ways and personality. I think he could've been a big star if he was 25 instead of 35 when the sport was finally starting to take off. As for Royce and Coleman/Kerr, those would've been ridiculous fights even in the 'No Rules, No Weightclasses' era. Either Coleman or Kerr would make two of Royce. I know the BJJ thing was largely based on the little guy evening the odds with a bigger guy but when the bigger guy is as skilled as a Coleman or Kerr and they outweigh you by about 100lbs, that's just a stupid fight to take. They'd have had to do Kerr vs Royce and Renzo together for it to be fair, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 (edited) When I say "Myth", I mean he would have not have done much better than Royce, and probably been exposed as one-dimensional just like him. Like I said, the Gracie's where only a few years ahead of the game in 1994. Royce eventually got exposed, which some believed he never would. A small portion of people believed in the Matt Hughes thing I posted above. Royce was lucky to miss the Coleman's and Kerr's, as was Rickson, in those days weightclasses were irrelevant. If they would have stuck around in the late 90's they probably would have had to face one of them. The Severn fight (which Royce barely won) was a warning, the 2nd Shamrock fight was the final blow. The Gracies had to be more selective to protect their aura. Rickson is only partially a "myth" due to what the Gracie's hold him to be. His age is partly the reason he never fought the likes of Frank or Bas, but it is not like he could have not stuck around in Pride after beating Takada twice. Rickson was no doubt talented, and in a way I am glad he is still unbeaten (in MMA competition). But, the Gracie's and fans did keep a certain myth going, that interview where Rickson claimed he could beat Fedor is an example, it kept the opinion going at least on forums that the Gracie system could still beat all. This did end in 2006 finally when Hughes smashed Royce. I get what you mean, "what if" he faced Frank and Bas. I personally think he would have been beaten by them. Sakuraba? Not sure, like Trigg something tells me he could actually win that, Rickson would have been the bigger man. I have no doubt he would have done as well as Royce in the UFC, probably with a bit more ease, but he would have had to get out like Royce to protect his aura. Edited February 8, 2014 by jimufctna24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurryAngel Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Ricardo Arona being allowed to use elbows would have been a scary force if he'd made the move in 2006. His stand up game was basic (although he did have great leg kicks) but he was so strong that he could take anyone down. Hasn't he won ADCC a few times but never lost a point? Apparently he just surfs and shags women. I'd have loved to have seen Rickson fight a 'proper' opponent just once. The Gracie's used to have such an aura around them that the seemed unbeatable. But as MMA has evolved they've been shown up as just one trick ponies. If we assume he was better than Royce then I still can't seem him being much of a challenge for Bas, Sakuraba and Frank Shamrock at the time. And as for beating Fedor? Would you mess with that man? I know I have a massive man crush on Fedor but he looks amazing since retiring Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Fedor has kept himself in good shape, he was never one to have abs or anything. He looks as good now as he did in his fighting prime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted February 8, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2014 Fedor looks in better shape now to me than he did when he was fighting. He was probably always trying to put weight on when he was fighting. He was never really the right frame for heavyweight, which makes what he accomplished all the more impressive. If he was getting into MMA now, when you consider his frame, you'd think he'd be at light heavyweight maximum. Possibly even 185. He's no bigger than Shogun. Yet he fought at heavyweight his entire career and was successful enough to be considered by many the best heavyweight ever. And soundly beat his two closest rivals, Nogueira and Cro Cop in their primes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted February 8, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2014 The fact he competed with heavyweights toe-to-toe makes it particularly impressive, I think - when you consider such instances as when he took a direct shot from a heavyweight the size of Brett Rogers, which even broke his nose, and still went on to beat him decisively, he must have had a steel chin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted February 8, 2014 Paid Members Share Posted February 8, 2014 He had a few scares even in the prime of his career. The Fujita fight is the most common example, Fujita hurt him badly. Fedor didn't always take a shot well, but he always seemed to recover well. And whenever he got hurt he seemed to become even more dangerous. Just after Fujita almost knocked him out, Fedor dropped him and choked him out. Even towards the end of his career Arlovski had him on the ropes and Fedor almost took his head off with an overhand right. And the German suplex he took off Kevin Randleman looked like it should have paralyzed him, or worse. And about 20 seconds after being spiked on his head, he had Randleman tapping to a Kimura. The best compliment I can give Fedor is in the first Nogueira fight and the Cro Cop fight. Nogueira was thought to be the best grappler in the division at the time and was thought pretty much unbeatable going in. Fedor fought almost the whole fight in Nog's guard, which was considered the most lethal guard in the sport at the time. And Fedor destroyed Nog from that guard. Cro Cop was a killer striker, also in his physical prime. He was at his fastest and most powerful striking abilities between 2002-06. He had a bit of the Tyson aura about him having wrecked the likes of Igor Vovchanchyn and Fedor's brother Aleksander with headkicks. And Fedor dominated him. Aside from a competitive spell in the first round, it was one way traffic. He absolutely schooled the two guys who were most feared in the division. And all as a chubby, undersized heavyweight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 The 2nd fight between Fedor vs Nog which I viewed a few years ago underlines that Fedor's legacy for me. Nog did everything he could in the build up, as he got himself into peak condition, worked on his boxing and was coming of some decent wins, yet still Fedor was just a little too good for him. I say "2nd fight" as the final of the 2004 HW tourney ended in a no contest between the two, I am not counting that. I think Fedor was never the same after breaking his hand on Zulu's head at the end of 2005. But he is still the clear-cut best Heavyweight on his era, I see no debate to be had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Looking through some old videos I had on my favorites on Youtube, I found this classic. It is the opening to Pride's last show. Made me think it is almost 6 years since Pride closed. I remember reading about it in my local Library in absolute shock. The last show was the fucking pits, but the company was still bloody strong in its last year in business (they rarely had a bad show, and the final of the Open Weight GP, is probably my favorite MMA show ever) Still think Pride's production pisses all over UFC's from a great height. I also prefer the way they presented MMA. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOJ3dM5RWOw...KiCcu2fu4NweEpA Edited February 12, 2014 by jimufctna24 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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