New Doctor Who

[Vamp]

So wife beating, suicide, contemplation of survivor's guilt following war, cynicism about political promises, actually showing a working class family in a prime time television drama that wasn't a soap, an attack on the gluttony and greed of the Western world after people had stuffed their faces full of Christmas Day turkey (and god knows there's more examples but I can't be arsed) are middle of the road and childish? You talk utter twaddle. I'm still surprised at some of the things RTD managed to sneak in at Saturday teatime.

 

I like Moffat too. Not enough to pretend that he's made Doctor Who more grown up. I wish people would get over this RTD/Moffat nonsense. I don't have time for the "Moffat's too complicated" or "RTD's childish" nonsense because neither are true and are just lazy attempts at critique that people have stolen from elsewhere. There's faults to pick at, but they're not them.

 

And I'm not praising RTD over Moffat before you accuse me of that.

[d-d-d-dAz]

I'm not accusing you of anything, which is why I went to great pains to say I was generalising. But, you can't say that, aside from yourself, the arguments I've laid out aren't littered across the media/Who forums.If you like both, that's great. More power to you. But, a lot of people have accused Moffat (thanks for bold-ing the 'a', I feel not only informed, but that it somehow further validated your argument ) of over sexualising the Doctor and his relationships, using series long arcs and being too dark for prime time TV. If that's true, then great. The show is better for it.I'm surprised anyone would argue that RTD's era was anything less than childish, though. Relatively speaking, of course. As much as I love it, it's not turned not The Wire overnight. Even if its true that he embraced grown up themes (though I wouldn't say 'working class' was a grown up theme), contextually the emotional certainty with which he attacked them is what made them more childlike, more 'child friendly' if you prefer. His scripting, too, and general presentation for me screamed 'kids TV show, with little to offer adults' and reeked of the worst of British telly.

Edited June 11, 2013 by d-d-d-dAz

[CoreyVandal]

Back to the slightly possible Who/Bond connection, ever since I was a kid I always wanted them to get 2 James Bond's for a Comic Relief/Children In Need/Red Nose Day sketch where they show one getting shot and 'regenerating' into the other. I think the idea did come from legitimately thinking that the multiple Bonds worked the same way as the multiple Doctors when I was quite young, but even after then I just thought it'd be fucking cool to see.

[HarmonicGenerator]

I went to see a screening of The Audience last night and they always put up loads of National Theatre ads - the ones last night made me quite interested to see Rory Kinnear if he gets the part. In the space of a minute we saw him as Iago in Othello and then as Hamlet... If he can pull off both those roles, The Doctor should be a good fit for him.

[GalaxyV.2]

He's a fine actor for sure. And would change the show in the way a new Doctor should do.

[Vamp]

I'm not accusing you of anything, which is why I went to great pains to say I was generalising. But, you can't say that, aside from yourself, the arguments I've laid out aren't littered across the media/Who forums.If you like both, that's great. More power to you. But, a lot of people have accused Moffat (thanks for bold-ing the 'a', I feel not only informed, but that it somehow further validated your argument ) of over sexualising the Doctor and his relationships, using series long arcs and being too dark for prime time TV. If that's true, then great. The show is better for it.I'm surprised anyone would argue that RTD's era was anything less than childish, though. Relatively speaking, of course. As much as I love it, it's not turned not The Wire overnight. Even if its true that he embraced grown up themes (though I wouldn't say 'working class' was a grown up theme), contextually the emotional certainty with which he attacked them is what made them more childlike, more 'child friendly' if you prefer. His scripting, too, and general presentation for me screamed 'kids TV show, with little to offer adults' and reeked of the worst of British telly.

Moffet just looked strange. Loads of people have also praised Moffat for making the show more grown up, adult and intelligent. Which he hasn't really done. That's my argument. Intelligent these days seems to mean "includes big plotholes that we have to speculate about to pretend things make sense." But then I don't actually think he's tried to make Doctor Who more grown up, adult or intelligent. He knows he's making it for six year olds, he's been quite open about it.

I'm surprised anyone would argue that RTD's era was anything less than childish, though. Relatively speaking, of course. As much as I love it, it's not turned not The Wire overnight.

You saying that is just silly though isn't it? I mean, you kind of prove your argument's pretty worthless when you retort to this. I haven't turned around to you and gone "oh Moffat's so intelligent is he, well he's not the Wire! Oh yeah, serve!" Because that'd be stupid. Its Doctor Who, its not meant to be The Wire. Unless you're trying to say that the difference between RTD and Moffat is like the difference between a child's show and The Wire. Not quite sure why you'd insult Moffat like that though when you're trying to praise him. Comparing a man who's trying to write a sci-fi/fairytale show for six year olds and families to an adult cop series on HBO is a bit of an insult to his skills really.

Even if its true that he embraced grown up themes (though I wouldn't say 'working class' was a grown up theme), contextually the emotional certainty with which he attacked them is what made them more childlike, more 'child friendly' if you prefer. His scripting, too, and general presentation for me screamed 'kids TV show, with little to offer adults' and reeked of the worst of British telly.

I was making a point that you couldn't really accuse RTD of being middling, ignorant or apolitical like you seemed to be accusing him of with comparisons to shows like My Family. RTD's tenure was more political than Moffat's. He tried to produce a positive depiction of a working class family, and tackle the dark and adult themes I mentioned (and lots of others). Also, going "oh, but Moffat's Doctor is more overt sexually and therefore more for the adults" and trying to suggest it doesn't come up with RTD is a bit bollocks isn't it? The Doctor contemplates several times in RTD's era whether he could have a relationship with a woman, comes to the conclusion (as all adults inevitably have at some point in their lives) that he couldn't because his life isn't geared to it at the time, lettinng somebody get burned when we knew the relationship wasn't a good idea and becomming colder as a result, are all events I'm sure most adults can relate to, and children probably can't. In contrast, I've never once married a psychopath designed to kill me who also turns out to be the best friend and daughter of the woman I travelled with. I can't say I particularly relate to that much at all as an adult. I dated a girl who was a bit clingy once. Although Rose is probably more clingy than River Song. I don't know why you feel the need to constantly defend Moffat against attacks that aren't coming. But saying things like "he's more grown up than RTD was" ends up turning into a criticism of Moffat when a) he isn't and b) he isn't trying to be and c) its a show for children. At its best, at its very best, Doctor Who is a fun romp with some subtle contemplations. Moffat's brought in more gimmicks than RTD, some of which inevitably get a bit frustrating at times but he's producing quite a bit of telly so that's inevitable, but I don't really know why anyone would get the impression that Moffat's Doctor Who is something different than RTD's other than in general aesthetic theme where its obvious RTD's was more inspired by comic books and Moffat's was more inspired by fairytales.Edit: I don't really have much of an opinion on Kinnear getting the role. It'd be a srurpising casting in that I can't imagine him being as silly as Ten and Eleven were and because he doesn't have the look of a fresh faced youngster but other than that I think its probably quite difficult to tell what he'd be like as the Doctor unless he gets it. My main thought it how strange it'll be when the Doctor appears for thirty seconds in a Bond movie. Just because of how iconic those characters are.

Back to the slightly possible Who/Bond connection, ever since I was a kid I always wanted them to get 2 James Bond's for a Comic Relief/Children In Need/Red Nose Day sketch where they show one getting shot and 'regenerating' into the other. I think the idea did come from legitimately thinking that the multiple Bonds worked the same way as the multiple Doctors when I was quite young, but even after then I just thought it'd be fucking cool to see.

I think its a massive shame they haven't got them all on stage together at some point. Or even all of them that aren't Connery if they can't get him to do it. Edited June 14, 2013 by Vamp

[Jaffa]

You two are ruining the most exciting time in the Who universe. Can you get lost so the rest of us can go back to "I hope the next Doctor is Lionel Blair" and other such tripe?

[d-d-d-dAz]

I said, or at least i tried to before autocorrect changed it, 'its not turned into The Wire overnight'.My point was that its still obviously a show made for kids, but that there's slightly more meat on the bones to chew on now.Also, I'm not really defending Moffat agains attacks. Certainly not from you, anyway. You're the opposite of what annoys me in RTD fans. You seem reasonable and can weigh up both sides; I get riled by people, for example, who endlessly bitch about new Who and then suggest Miranda for the lead role. Which happens way more than I expected.As for the casting rumours, Kinnears camp seem to have distanced him from it and the remaining bookies that is taking odds rate Chris Addison and Andrew Scott as better bets.

Edited June 17, 2013 by d-d-d-dAz

[GalaxyV.2]

Nobody linked strongly ever gets the role. It'll be someone unknown or at leats not as well known as the ones mentioned.

[Vamp]

Chris Addison? I can't see it myself. I'd be into Andrew Scott giving it a go.

[GalaxyV.2]

Addison is too comedy. He's never done drama, and I doubt he would be able to. Seems people are just betting on him as he's skinny and has big hair.

[d-d-d-dAz]

Also, a Radio Times journalist (and Paloma Faith) said they'd heard from a 'trusted BBC source' that Addison was a favourite of a lot of very important people.Though, I can't see Moff going for it.I re watched the Rings of Akhaten yesterday, that speech is really something isnt it?

[insert_name_here]

I've been saying this since it was announced that Eccleston was leaving and i've probably mentioned it in here before but i still think Richard O'Brien would make a cracking Doctor. He's always had a slightly alien-esque look about him, he dresses like a mad parrot and he's practically built his career on running around shouting out random words and phrases, just get him to dust off his old Crystal Maze wardrobe, replace his harmonica for a Sonic Screwdriver and bob's your uncle, instant Doctor.

Edited June 19, 2013 by insert_name_here

[Retro Red]

I've been saying this since it was announced that Eccleston was leaving and i've probably mentioned it in here before but i still think Richard O'Brien would make a cracking Doctor. He's always had a slightly alien-esque look about him, he dresses like a mad parrot and he's practically built his career on running around shouting out random words and phrases, just get him to dust off his old Crystal Maze wardrobe, replace his harmonica for a Sonic Screwdriver and bob's your uncle, instant Doctor.

He's also 71, so it'd never happen.

[Vamp]

Addison is too comedy. He's never done drama, and I doubt he would be able to. Seems people are just betting on him as he's skinny and has big hair.

Its also that he's a comedian. They always reckon its going to be a comedian. I'm never actually sure why they think that but they do.