Boxing Thread

[Rossman]

The 152lb catchweight is Floyd's angle in this fight. Canelo was drained and he said he made weight a day before which is worrying. He should of left it as late as possible to the weigh in, then rehydrated back up. Canelo's got the advantage of no rehydration limit so he can go as big as he likes. But judging from his appearance at the weigh-in, I doubt he's been eating solids this week, which will hamper his weight gain which equals strength, power, stamina, etc.

[Gooner]

May has beaten bascially everyone that he could have in his era. The only blemish on his resume which will stand out and will be used against him once he retires is Pacquiao. May won't care though as he will be able to say Pac lost throughout his career and in the later stages making the fight redundent. It will tarnish his legacy, whether he wants to admit it or not. It tarnishes both of their's as neither did enough to give us the biggest fight off all time. May can earn huge money and give his opponents no where near knowing he is going to win, much easier to do that then to give half the money away to someone else and know there's a chance you may lose. Pac calling for the fight in recent months is desperation, if he had done that at his peak, when every one wanted it, it could have happened, but he was never vocal enough and hid behind the fact he let's his promoter do his business. I would say May/Canelo is the biggest other fight out there, it's going to make huge money and it be interesting to see if it beats May/De la Hoya PPV record, I think it will fall just short personally, but anything over 1.5M will represent great business.

[Egg Shen]

please stop calling him May

 

...they are predicting 2.million buys!

Edited September 14, 2013 by Ebb

[Egg Shen]

I would say this is Floyd's biggest challenge since Hatton and De Le Hoya in 2007. Marquez was a favorable style match-up, Mosely was a OAP, Victor Ortiz was a good league below, as was Guerrero.

Even then, De La Hoya was on his way out, and Hatton was fairly battleworn by that point as well. That's what I mean with Floyd, it always seems impossible to tell how good he really is, as he never seems to be involved in the fight when his opponent is prime, young, and ready to go.

 

i think every boxer can be found guilty of taking fight you would classify as 'low risk, high reward', it's part of the game. Mayweather's definitely guilty of doing that but not to the extent that some people claim.

 

If it wasn't for the whole Pacquiao debacle i don't think it would even be that much of a talking point.

[jimufctna24]

I let him off for Oscar, as the size advantage that De Le Hoya had presented a new challenge at the time. It was probably the closest fight Floyd ever had. Hatton I think was at his peak, but the fight taken place at Welterweight was not to Hatton's advantage.

 

You can pick holes in most fighters wins if you look closely enough, but its all academic. Tonight is a massive fight from a commercial and sporting standpoint, it delivers on both sided of the coin.

[Egg Shen]

ive decided to lay a few quid on a Alvarez/Matthysse/Smith treble,

[wandshogun09]

I let him off for Oscar, as the size advantage that De Le Hoya had presented a new challenge at the time. It was probably the closest fight Floyd ever had.

 

I thought the first Castillo fight was closer. In fact, I'm sure I had Castillo winning, a lot of people think Castillo was robbed that night. I haven't seen it since but I remember having it close, but thinking Castillo should have got the nod. De La Hoya was a close fight but I had Floyd in that one.

 

You can pick holes in most fighters wins if you look closely enough, but its all academic.

 

This is right. It's easy with hindsight to find holes, especially in light of how De La Hoya and Hatton's careers went post-Mayweather, but at the time they were the fights people wanted. De La Hoya had the size, Hatton was always the underdog but he was undefeated going in, a lot of people were still picking him despite the weight and Floyd's style being bad for him on paper.

 

You can find holes in Pacquiao's opponents - a one-eyed Margarito, a weight drained and past it De La Hoya, a damaged goods Cotto after Margarito bashed him about, old man Mosley. You can always pick holes in a record if you want to.

 

The thing is, besides Pacquiao, who did Mayweather not fight of his era that he should have fought? Margarito maybe? But that's about it. The Pacquiao fight not happening, as said, will be a stain on both their legacies. But he's pretty much beat every other top name of his era up to now. Adding a young, in form Canelo Alvarez to his resume will only strengthen it. If he wins tonight obviously.

[Carbomb]

You can pick holes in most fighters wins if you look closely enough, but its all academic.

 

This is right. It's easy with hindsight to find holes, especially in light of how De La Hoya and Hatton's careers went post-Mayweather, but at the time they were the fights people wanted. De La Hoya had the size, Hatton was always the underdog but he was undefeated going in, a lot of people were still picking him despite the weight and Floyd's style being bad for him on paper.

 

You can find holes in Pacquiao's opponents - a one-eyed Margarito, a weight drained and past it De La Hoya, a damaged goods Cotto after Margarito bashed him about, old man Mosley. You can always pick holes in a record if you want to.

 

The thing is, besides Pacquiao, who did Mayweather not fight of his era that he should have fought? Margarito maybe? But that's about it. The Pacquiao fight not happening, as said, will be a stain on both their legacies. But he's pretty much beat every other top name of his era up to now. Adding a young, in form Canelo Alvarez to his resume will only strengthen it. If he wins tonight obviously.

 

I have to agree with David, though. As I mentioned some time ago in the MMA thread concerning Cung Le, if you're in a sport, you should want to face the best going at the time, otherwise what really is the point? I understand there's a marketing side to it, and that's fair enough, but then don't expect to be considered amongst the GOAT if your decisions are only done by business lights. The essence of sport is competition, and the value of it is that you risk yourself every time you go up against a real opponent - consequently, the greater the challenge, the better you look when you win. Hell, that's wrestling booking 101.

 

In fact, one could argue that going down the sporting route, of actually embracing the essence of competition, is better business in the long run, because being able to place yourself amongst the greatest, to say you fought everyone who was ever worth a damn and beat them, will make you cash after your career, not just during it.

 

For me, Floyd isn't the GOAT - not just because he didn't fight Pac and Margarito, but because of the attitude behind it: it's not the mindset of of a winner, of someone who really had faith in his ability to really be king of the world. True, I'm sure he couldn't give a shiny shit what the boxing world thinks of him as he draws his curtains of stitched-together $100 bills, takes a bath in champagne and fucks his latest Playmate of the Year with a satin condom on a bed of all the previous Playmates on all fours, but if he was hoping to be considered the best ever, then he didn't really go the right route.

[wandshogun09]

I hear all that but really, I can't see how he can't be considered among the best of all time. Not the best, #1 GOAT and all that fine. But to not even class him among them is crackers to me when you look at the man's longevity at the top, his performances where in many cases he's barely dropped a round. The fact he's beat, and handily beat, almost every other relevant top name of his era. His star power also has to come into it, the huge PPVs. He could be one of the few to retire undefeated. All this has to be considered.

 

I'm as gutted as anyone that he didn't fight Pacquiao in 2009/10 when it should have happened, but let's be honest it wasn't all down to Floyd why that fight never came off. Pac wasn't screaming from the rooftops to get it made himself. And I've always thought Bob Arum a shady fuck. There were many reasons that fight, unfortunately, never came to pass and I don't think it can be chalked up to an attitude on Floyd's part of not wanting to fight the best. He fought pretty much all the best guys out there, except one. The Margarito fight wasn't a must, they kind of missed each other. The Pacquiao fight is the only one that really should have happened. But to not class Mayweather in that bracket among the best boxers of all time just because that one fight didn't happen, I don't see it. People can knock his opponents and play the hindsight game, say his opponents were old or past it all they want. The fact is, a guy can only fight who's there. Tyson got shit for fighting subpar opposition in the 80s and was compared unfavourably to the 70s greats like Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes etc. But Tyson inherited a heavyweight division that was left in tatters after those guys retired. He had to fight who was there. Same with Mayweather. It would have been nice to see prime Mayweather fight a young vibrant Shane Mosely or Oscar De La Hoya but what can you do? Without a time machine, he can only fight the versions he was faced with.

 

Say, Ali never fought Frazier, sure his legacy wouldn't be quite what it is now, but would that diminish the rest of his accomplishments? Dethroning Sonny Liston and becoming champion when no-one gave him a shot? Defying the odds against Foreman in Zaire? The Pacquiao fight would have been a great moment but it doesn't make or break a career like Mayweather's in my eyes. I think Pacquiao needed that fight for his legacy more than Mayweather needed it for his, to be honest. Like Frazier, awesome as he was, without the Ali fights would he be thought of in the same light? The trilogy with Ali made him. Ali had already carved out a legacy before he fought Frazier, then went on to create historic moments later with Foreman. The Frazier trilogy to Ali was the biggest rivalry of his career but for Frazier it almost was his career. Pacquiao's had an amazing career himself but he'd lost, been stopped etc years before he became the big household name. He needed the Floyd fight a little bit more IMO, and did he really push for it? Yet I don't hear much of the blame put on him. They both fucked that fight up. Now the ship has kind of sailed on the fight and Manny's lost a couple, now he realises what a fucking huge chance was missed.

 

With or without the Pacquiao name on his resume, and I think it would have been a fairly wide points win for Floyd had it happened, Floyd's legacy is pretty much set. Manny would have been the cherry on top but it doesn't render the rest of his career and accomplishments worthless.

 

Christ, I've gone on.

[David]

The thing is, besides Pacquiao, who did Mayweather not fight of his era that he should have fought? Margarito maybe? But that's about it.

He's already made it clear that he won't entertain the idea of facing Sergio Martinez. A catchweight of 150lbs was suggested by Martinez, but Mayweather isn't interested. At all. Even though he's happy to fight at 152lbs with Alvarez tonight.

 

His answer to the idea was to ramble on about Martinez being nowhere to be seen when Mayweather was 21, or something.

 

Simply put, it's a fight that is far too risky for him, especially from a style point of view. The gains don't outweigh the risk as far as Floyd's concerned, and that's fine. But that's not the actions of a champion and the so-called greatest of all time, is it?

 

Mayweather is a great fighter, but every fight he takes is careful considered and only taken if the risk level isn't deemed to be too high. He'll be remembered as the best businessman in boxing, but the greatest of all time? Not a fucking chance. He's not even top five.

[Rossman]

The thing is, besides Pacquiao, who did Mayweather not fight of his era that he should have fought? Margarito maybe? But that's about it.

He's already made it clear that he won't entertain the idea of facing Sergio Martinez. A catchweight of 150lbs was suggested by Martinez, but Mayweather isn't interested. At all. Even though he's happy to fight at 152lbs with Alvarez tonight.

 

His answer to the idea was to ramble on about Martinez being nowhere to be seen when Mayweather was 21, or something.

 

Simply put, it's a fight that is far too risky for him, especially from a style point of view. The gains don't outweigh the risk as far as Floyd's concerned, and that's fine. But that's not the actions of a champion and the so-called greatest of all time, is it?

 

Mayweather is a great fighter, but every fight he takes is careful considered and only taken if the risk level isn't deemed to be too high. He'll be remembered as the best businessman in boxing, but the greatest of all time? Not a fucking chance. He's not even top five.

 

No offense but Martinez would have been talking out of his arse there. Mayweather would destroy Martinez at 150lbs and thats even if he could make weight in the first place. His knee's and back are fucked after every fight and he's at the level of scraping through against Martin Murray because it was in his hometown. Martinez is scared shitless of facing Golovkin at 160lbs, there's no way he would go down to 150lbs to take a beating from Mayweather.

[wandshogun09]

That's the thing though Dave, not once have I said he's THE greatest of all time. My point was that to not even consider him in among that level is ludicrous to me. There's a few guys I'd rate higher and personally I'm not even a fan of Floyd, but he's had a hell of a career there's no denying it.

 

The Martinez fight is one I'd love to see but he's under no obligation to go up in weight and like Rossman says above, I doubt Martinez would be up for going down in weight for that fight. Again, it's not just down to Mayweather to get these fights made. Its a little bit different anyway when they're not even in the same division. You can't hold those fights not happening against a guy's overall legacy.

 

I don't mean this to sound dickish but you were saying the complete opposite when talks of a Anderson Silva vs GSP catchweight superfight were rife late last year. You were saying they were in separate divisions to back up your argument as I recall. You weren't saying GSP was less of a champion despite his pissing about trying to avoid the Anderson fight. That was always what annoyed me about that whole thing. As much as I dislike Mayweather I'd rather see a guy do what he did - tell us flat out that he won't go up in weight for a superfight, than what GSP did - string everyone along for four years with his 'maybe I will-maybe I won't' bullshit. Only to trot out the ridiculous 'but he's a 230lbs giant' crap when backed into a corner. For all his faults, at least Floyd was upfront with it and didn't cocktease everyone into thinking the Martinez fight was a possibility. GSP did that so well he even had Dana talking dates and venues, when he clearly had no intention of ever fighting. That was always my biggest thing with that, if GSP didn't want the fight that's fine. But he could have just nipped it in the bud in 2009 and said he was happy at 170 and unless Anderson dropped to 170, the fight wouldn't happen. People would have moved on a lot quicker had he done that rather than throw out little nuggets of hope talking about needing time to bulk up and all that.

 

I'm a big believer in superfights. I think when you have a genuine superfight those fights come along so rarely that when they don't happen it drives me nuts. We didn't get Floyd vs Manny or Floyd vs Martinez. We didn't get Anderson vs GSP or Anderson vs Jones. All these fights are still possible to some degree but they've all lost some sparkle in one way or another because either the fighters, the promoters or both kept holding off on pulling the trigger.

 

But just like GSP's legacy doesn't really suffer from not fighting Anderson, I don't think people will look back and hold Floyd not going up in weight to fight Martinez against him either.

[jimufctna24]

Wand- I have never seen the first Castillo fight, but are not the first mention thinking Castillo won.

 

And no it was not all Floyd's fault the Pac fight did not happen, Bob Arum and others have a large part to play also. All politics between people who did not want to harm their cash cow. Margarito was always the theoretical fighter people pointed towards, but I think Floyd will still dispatch him fairly handily.

 

As I do with F1 and MMA, I can only compare fighters I have either lived through or have a decent knowledge of, and Floyd is one of the best I have seen. A lot of people think if he was fighting the likes of Sugar Ray and Hearns he would have losses on his record. But you cannot take away that the Floyd has beaten what has been in front of him, and most of the fighters have been relevant and not as shopworn as some are making out.

 

I said this about BJ Penn in another thread, I judge fighters on context not stats a lot of the time, circumstance and names are factors to myself. Floyd may have been in there with some sub-par opposition, but he hardly put a foot wrong. The Guerrero fight was a masterclass, he took apart Hatton like no one had done up until that point, he dominated Marquez and other than a brief slip against Mosley, he rarely encounters much trouble.

 

I think he would have beaten Pac-Man in 2010 on points, that is a retrospective and highly subjective viewpoint, but I honestly believe it as a fan of both.

 

Edit: I agree on the Martinez point, Floyd would handle him at 150lbs.

Edited September 14, 2013 by jimufctna24

[Richie Freebird]

Apologies for the utter twattery of such a request, but does anyone have stream links for Galahad / Dickens?

[Mr Lawrence]

i hope you got the stream mate, as it was a contender for fight of the year. he is an extrememly poor version of hamed though, with feck all to say other than BOOM! i dont think quigg or frampton would even entertain themselves by fighting him at this stage.