Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted July 14 Paid Members Share Posted July 14 9 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said: I agree. But by that logic he should have met with Hamas too, no? And not just the Palestinian Authority leader. Absolutely agree. Hamas will have to be involved in any negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted July 14 Paid Members Share Posted July 14 1 minute ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said: Absolutely agree. Hamas will have to be involved in any negotiations. How likely do you think it is that we're going to see a picture of David Lammy shaking hands with anybody from Hamas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted July 14 Paid Members Share Posted July 14 Just now, Devon Malcolm said: How likely do you think it is that we're going to see a picture of David Lammy shaking hands with anybody from Hamas? Not very, but honestly I don't know if there is a picture of any other international politicians shaking hands with anyone from Hamas either. I'm sure the negotiations are going on but I'm not sure they are at the photography stage yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted July 14 Moderators Share Posted July 14 17 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said: Not very, but honestly I don't know if there is a picture of any other international politicians shaking hands with anyone from Hamas either. I'm sure the negotiations are going on but I'm not sure they are at the photography stage yet. Well the fact is that the statement he has made to the world is that Great Britain recognises the legitimacy of Netenyahu, they recognise the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority, but they do not recognise the legitimacy of Hamas. Not a controversial position in the current status quo, but how helpful do you think it is to be making that statement? How conducive is it to ultimately achieving some kind of peaceful resolution? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted July 14 Paid Members Share Posted July 14 Not at all, but again who else is recognising the legitimacy of Hamas publicly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted July 14 Moderators Share Posted July 14 I don't think our involvement is going to do anything productive if we continue to work within that existing narrative. I do recognise though that the incoming government is in a precarious position, it needs to be ultra focused on its immediate priorities and this is likely not one of them (and they never pretended it was tbh). And strategically I get it, but a lot of people are going to continue to die as a result and it's fucking horrible, and we as the public should absolutely hold them to account for it as that's our part of the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted July 14 Paid Members Share Posted July 14 47 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said: Not at all, but again who else is recognising the legitimacy of Hamas publicly? Should he have to wait for other countries to recognise them first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted July 15 Paid Members Share Posted July 15 7 hours ago, Chest Rockwell said: I don't think our involvement is going to do anything productive if we continue to work within that existing narrative. I do recognise though that the incoming government is in a precarious position, it needs to be ultra focused on its immediate priorities and this is likely not one of them (and they never pretended it was tbh). And strategically I get it, but a lot of people are going to continue to die as a result and it's fucking horrible, and we as the public should absolutely hold them to account for it as that's our part of the job. I 100% agree with you Chest. We definitely need to hold them to account. That isn't what Jag did though. He said he always knew he didn't like David Lammy. That isn't holding anyone to account. 7 hours ago, Devon Malcolm said: Should he have to wait for other countries to recognise them first? No, but that isn't how these things work. When the IRA ceasefire was negotiated in 1994 Major's government weren't out there having photos done with IRA commanders, the official line was we don't negotiate with terrorists, despite the fact they had been doing exactly that for years. If anyone were to recognise Hamas at this point it would be unhelpful, it would give Netenyahu an excuse to stop negotiations, and let's face it the Israeli government are not really negotiating in good faith in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BigJag Posted July 15 Paid Members Share Posted July 15 Hmmm. How can we hold them to account? I tried to keep informed of who the incoming government was going to be. Lammy in his shadow position didn't impress me in the slightest. We pretty much knew what we were going to get with Labour. More of the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lion_of_the_Midlands Posted July 15 Paid Members Share Posted July 15 Why am I arguing with a fucking simpleton. Bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SuperBacon Posted July 15 Members Share Posted July 15 Me every morning trying to convince myself that granola is the better option over just coffee and chocolate hobnobs: 8 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said: Why am I arguing with a fucking simpleton. Bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamura Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 10 hours ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said: When the IRA ceasefire was negotiated in 1994 Major's government weren't out there having photos done with IRA commanders, the official line was we don't negotiate with terrorists, despite the fact they had been doing exactly that for years. If anyone were to recognise Hamas at this point it would be unhelpful, it would give Netenyahu an excuse to stop negotiations, and let's face it the Israeli government are not really negotiating in good faith in the first place. John Major might not have been having photos taken with IRA commanders, but another world leader very much was having photos taken with an alleged IRA commander in 1995.Speaking as someone with more than a passing interest in the Troubles, that really wasn't John Major's, or more specifically the British government's position at all. During the conflict the British government even arranged for the RAF to fly the IRA leadership to London for talks with Secretary of State for Northern Ireland William Whitelaw in 1972, and that's in addition to the various back-channel communications going on at various times. In the lead-up to the IRA ceasefire there were all kinds of messages being delivered, I'm sure many members of the British Association of Canned Food Importers & Distributors wondered why Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Peter Brooke told them in 1990 that "The British government has no selfish, strategic or economic interest in Northern Ireland", but it was because he wanted to get the message into the public domain and the IRA leadership had been notified in advance of what would be said. Following the IRA's 1994 ceasefire the expectation was that Sinn Féin would be invited to multi-party talks, only that didn't happen and in March 1995 Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Patrick Mayhew threw a spanner in the works by imposing what became known as the "Washington 3" conditions; the IRA would have to demonstrate a willingness to decomission, agree a method for decomissioning, and lastly to actually decomission some arms prior to talks taking place. The last one was never going to be acceptable to the IRA, and led to the eventual ending of the ceasefire in February 1996. At the time Major was dependent on the support of Ulster Unionist Party MPs to prop up his ever-decreeasing majority at Westminster which is seen as having influenced his decision making, it really goes without saying that if you really were serious about bringing an end to the conflict then talking to just John Hume alone wasn't going to get the job done. Edited July 15 by Tamura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 Yeah I'm going to say missing Trump but taking out Tenacious D is still sort of a result... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted July 16 Paid Members Share Posted July 16 Alnaouq has lost over 20 family members. So far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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