Indyref 2

[Lenin]

5 hours ago, Louch said:

SNP are doing a terrible job and getting away with it year on year on things like health and education.

I cannot believe there is someone actually acknowledging this. If you read the papers or watch TV up here you'd think the SNP were the second coming. 

Having several family members in teaching the absolute shambles the SNP have presided over would be criminal in any other country. Ruined the curriculum. Forced all early education practitioners to go through years of additional qualifications regardless of experience or existing qualifications and what's it achieved? Nothing. The number of kids getting to school that cannot read or write has increased year on year.

And aside from buggering said education and health, after 14 years they still  have no economic argument basis put forward. Ireland did it? Aye. They also had 16% inflation for years and had to be bailed out. Iceland? Why? Oh they are the same size. 14 years and it's just going to be better. It might. It might be shite. But they have made very little concrete arguments for another referendum.

[David]

1 minute ago, Suplex Sinner said:

I cannot believe there is someone actually acknowledging this. If you read the papers or watch TV up here you'd think the SNP were the second coming. 

Having several family members in teaching the absolute shambles the SNP have presided over would be criminal in any other country. Ruined the curriculum. Forced all early education practitioners to go through years of additional qualifications regardless of experience or existing qualifications and what's it achieved? Nothing. The number of kids getting to school that cannot read or write has increased year on year.

And aside from buggering said education and health, after 14 years they still  have no economic argument basis put forward. Ireland did it? Aye. They also had 16% inflation for years and had to be bailed out. Iceland? Why? Oh they are the same size. 14 years and it's just going to be better. It might. It might be shite. But they have made very little concrete arguments for another referendum.

The problem is, if anyone dares raise those points they're met with "and the Tories are any better?" followed by insinuations that because you dare question the Peoples Front of Scotland you're unpatriotic and clearly voted for Brexit.

As sad as it is to say, they know they can paper over any cracks by simply waving the independence stick around, and the nationalist types will follow along. 

[Guest]

The snp have a firm grip on social media and have groups who swarm anyone who speaks against them. I’ve had a few friends fall victim to this. It makes People unwilling to speak up.

It took me ages to send me resignation from the party email, but I’m glad I did it. I’ve been waiting 6 years from my first appointment to get braces on my teeth. August 2016 and I still don’t even have one set on never mind the second and the surgery to follow. How is splitting from rUK gonna fix that? 

[RedRooster]

5 hours ago, Louch said:

I was yes in 2014, but I’ll be no now. SNP are doing a terrible job and getting away with it year on year on things like health and education. They say they would split if successful, but I can’t see it. They are not the party they were pre 2014, full of opportunists.

But it's not a party political vote. Whether or not the SNP are doing well should be irrelevant. Heck, I think it's more likely that we'd have a non-SNP government in the event of independence than there is if we remain in the UK. A large number of SNP voters back the party because of independence, and if that's happened, I think these people would be more inclined to consider non-constitutional issues. 

I think "the SNP are doing a terrible job" is a little simplistic in terms of framing. I think they're doing well when it comes to certain things, and not so well when it comes to others. Our NHS is in a much better place than the NHS in England, and there are further positives unique to Scotland, such as free prescriptions. Staffing is a problem, but Brexit and the pandemic has clearly played a role in that. 

As far as education goes, I think they've made some big mistakes when it comes to school level education - but when it comes to Higher Education, there's a big positive that could be undone in free tuition fees. 

As far as the "full of opportunists" comment goes, can you expand on that? I feel like they've lost some genuinely toxic figures since 2014, through the divide caused by the Alex Salmond court case. 

Personally, I think they're doing a good enough job for me to feel comfortable voting for them (I voted SNP/Green last Holyrood election) - but I'm one of the voters I referenced in the top line - I vote for them, because I'm in favour of independence. Take the constitution out of the equation, and I'd absolutely consider Labour as an option (I think Anas Sarwar is an excellent leader), or I might also consider giving the Greens my constituency vote. 

 

 

[David]

21 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

Take the constitution out of the equation, and I'd absolutely consider Labour as an option (I think Anas Sarwar is an excellent leader), or I might also consider giving the Greens my constituency vote. 

Sarwar is a great choice for leader in my opinion also, but the Greens fucked it with their school meals back-down. That's their Lib Dems moment right there.

[Lenin]

2 hours ago, Louch said:

The snp have a firm grip on social media and have groups who swarm anyone who speaks against them. I’ve had a few friends fall victim to this. It makes People unwilling to speak up.

It took me ages to send me resignation from the party email, but I’m glad I did it. I’ve been waiting 6 years from my first appointment to get braces on my teeth. August 2016 and I still don’t even have one set on never mind the second and the surgery to follow. How is splitting from rUK gonna fix that? 

I also fell victim to this going back 8 or 9 years now when the first "Tories are going to privatise the NHS" headlines surfaced and the SNP went to town on it. The same SNP that authorised a trial of pay for health services in a couple of local authorities. One of their MSPs attended a town hall type thing and really sold the benefits of it. So when I then called them out on Twitter for their hypocrisy and linked the transcript and paper they published on it my DMs went mental and I had all sorts of abuse, including death threats, because I was a "Tory bastard." I'm not, I simply pointed out their hypocrisy. But as has been said, anything that gets out there that they don't like, whether bots or blind believers, they hound people to the point they don't engage any more. Which is eerily similar to what happens in certain countries around the world. There is one official version of events that will always be adhered to.

[Jonny Vegas]

The vast majority of people that I know who vote for the SNP all say the same thing, they acknowledge that the SNP overall have done an absolutely terrible job in the 12 or so years they've been in power here. However they say thay as they're the only party who are pushing for independence and as long as they are, they will keep voting for them.

My belief is that the SNP know this is the case and will keep dangling the carrot to keep their power in Scotland for as long as they can. I think in these circumstances they know or believe an actual referendum let alone independence is highly unlikely but they can put it on the table and blame England for it not happening.

I'm all for the idea of independence, I've no time for Johnson or any of the other tories, nor diet tory Kier Starmer however as others have said, pretty much none of the concerns I had in 2014 have been addressed whatsoever, right down to not even having any clear plan on what currency would be used.

As a father of two young kids and a mortgage to pay, as much as I dislike the tories, the union jack and even the term british, I dislike plunging my family's immediate future into even more instability and uncertainty than is neccessary during times which are already absolutely fucking brutal without someone being able to give me pretty specific examples as to why it would be so much better than things are now.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Jonny Vegas

[Guest]

3 hours ago, RedRooster said:

But it's not a party political vote. Whether or not the SNP are doing well should be irrelevant. Heck, I think it's more likely that we'd have a non-SNP government in the event of independence than there is if we remain in the UK. A large number of SNP voters back the party because of independence, and if that's happened, I think these people would be more inclined to consider non-constitutional issues. 

I think "the SNP are doing a terrible job" is a little simplistic in terms of framing. I think they're doing well when it comes to certain things, and not so well when it comes to others. Our NHS is in a much better place than the NHS in England, and there are further positives unique to Scotland, such as free prescriptions. Staffing is a problem, but Brexit and the pandemic has clearly played a role in that. 

As far as education goes, I think they've made some big mistakes when it comes to school level education - but when it comes to Higher Education, there's a big positive that could be undone in free tuition fees. 

As far as the "full of opportunists" comment goes, can you expand on that? I feel like they've lost some genuinely toxic figures since 2014, through the divide caused by the Alex Salmond court case. 

Personally, I think they're doing a good enough job for me to feel comfortable voting for them (I voted SNP/Green last Holyrood election) - but I'm one of the voters I referenced in the top line - I vote for them, because I'm in favour of independence. Take the constitution out of the equation, and I'd absolutely consider Labour as an option (I think Anas Sarwar is an excellent leader), or I might also consider giving the Greens my constituency vote. 

 

 

It’s not a party political vote, but they are the populist party running Scotland for a long time now so gives you an idea of what the future would look like. 
 

doing better than English nhs still isn’t good enough. Education suplex sinner has covered in better detail than I can. 
 

full of opportunists - pre 2014 snp ran a lotta people who they didn’t expect to win seats. Then they had the 2015 surge at westminister where you had a lotta people get seats unexpectedly. Including several who had toured a few parties until they found a place to be elective, my area of Ochils was one of these seats taken by a staff member of Salmond. We have seen several cases since of people being In the snp as it’s how you get elected in Scotland, any other party it’s a lottery. Which has meant we have poor oppositions as anyone with any proper ability or ambition is in a yellow Rosette come election nights. 
 

I want Independence. But it has to be done right and in a position of strength to deal with all the issues that follow. Scotland isn’t being run in a way that gives us that. It’s being put forward to save a civil war in the party as people will get restless if it isn’t seen as something to happen. Run Scotland well and people will vote for it. People want reassurance and the covid furlough etc is going to be an easy win to get people voting to stay put when 8 Years later they can’t answer the currency question with any conviction.

[Jonny Vegas]

A lot of SNP "wins" are in my opinion largely perspective based rather than fact based.

Having a "better" NHS is largely based off of wait times and availability of services yet there isn't hugely dramatic differences between England and Scotland, despite I believe Scotland having a smaller population than London.

As others have mentioned one of the SNPs main jibes is tory privitasion of the NHS...something they've been doing here for years.

Nearly everything they (rightfully) lambast the tories for they've been doing here for years just in a smaller scale. Even their own economists as well as independent ones have said independence isn't possible without an increase in tax and a decrease in public spending/services. Austerity measures they've built their entire party around condoning.

They do all the same dodgy syphoning off money and contracts to their friends that the Tories do as well, the only reasons its on a smaller scale is that they have less money to do it with.

I'm sure pretty much every major figure in the EU has publicly said we wouldn't be able to just rejoin the EU...but Sturgeon is still saying it.

The EU wants all member states running at a public spending deficit of no more than 3% the UK as a whole runs or was running at 2.5%...Scotland is or was running at 8.6%. 

I know lots have said voting Indy doesn't mean SNP being in control but lets be realistic, they'd be in charge at the start whilst everything wad set up and then our alternatives would be brand new start ups or voting for the british funded exisiting parties, I can't help but imagine it being anything other than utter chaos.

Edited June 29, 2022 by Jonny Vegas

[MungoChutney]

14 hours ago, Suplex Sinner said:

 

Having several family members in teaching the absolute shambles the SNP have presided over would be criminal in any other country. Ruined the curriculum. Forced all early education practitioners to go through years of additional qualifications regardless of experience or existing qualifications and what's it achieved? Nothing. The number of kids getting to school that cannot read or write has increased year on year.

 

I get that you're using second hand experience here but what exactly do you mean by early education practitioners? If you mean staff working with birth to 5 year olds then you are way off the mark. There has not been years and years of extra qualifications achieving nothing. I won't get into primary education but in terms of Early Years the current Scottish vision is tremendous and it's working. Not every target has been achieved but Scotland has some of the best early years educators in Europe. I've been to Nordic countries and observed the practice, which in many cases is at the same level we have here. The biggest issue is we don't yet have the infrastructure to support the staff. With an independent Scotland my view is we have a better chance of achieving that. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by MungoChutney

[RedRooster]

9 hours ago, Louch said:

full of opportunists - pre 2014 snp ran a lotta people who they didn’t expect to win seats. Then they had the 2015 surge at westminister where you had a lotta people get seats unexpectedly. Including several who had toured a few parties until they found a place to be elective, my area of Ochils was one of these seats taken by a staff member of Salmond. We have seen several cases since of people being In the snp as it’s how you get elected in Scotland, any other party it’s a lottery. Which has meant we have poor oppositions as anyone with any proper ability or ambition is in a yellow Rosette come election nights. 

That would be Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, right? I can't remember whether or not she was a staff member of Salmond when she was elected, but she had been a member of the Tory party previously, so I do remember people questioning her motivations at the time. Regardless, if it is her that you're referring to, she's no longer a politician, and most Salmond loyalists are now out of the party. As with any political party, it's a mixed bag as far as talent goes, but for every Angus MacNeil or John Mason there's a John Nicholson or Stuart McDonald. 

9 hours ago, Louch said:

I want Independence. But it has to be done right and in a position of strength to deal with all the issues that follow. Scotland isn’t being run in a way that gives us that.

That's subjective, though. And frankly, even if you're right, beggars can't be choosers. If there's another referendum and you want independence, it would be mad not to vote for it, because we're almost certainly not going to get a third one in our lifetimes. As far as "position of strength" goes, what constitutes that, exactly? Due to Brexit, we're unlikely to be in an objectively strong position for a long, long time. 

9 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

A lot of SNP "wins" are in my opinion largely perspective based rather than fact based.

Having a "better" NHS is largely based off of wait times and availability of services yet there isn't hugely dramatic differences between England and Scotland, despite I believe Scotland having a smaller population than London.

Well, no. It's closer to what an NHS should be - something like free prescriptions, for example, is something that is very easy to take for granted. In terms of your comment on wait times and availability of services, I'm not sure that's factually true. Unless there's been a dip very recently that I've unable to find through Google, the NHS in Scotland has been the best performing NHS for a number of years, with bed availability, the number of GPs/nurses and spending per person being higher. 

However, statistics hide truths - and if you speak to any nurse or doctor, there's a clear issue with staffing. They're severely overworked. I'm not sure there's any quick solution to this, but this is a clear problem that could get much worse if mishandled. Brexit and Covid have played a factor in this, but it had gradually been unfolding for some time anyway.

9 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

I'm sure pretty much every major figure in the EU has publicly said we wouldn't be able to just rejoin the EU...but Sturgeon is still saying it.

I'm pretty certain that this is false. She's only said that their goal is to join the EU as soon as is possible, and that's what the SNP's policy on this is. Sturgeon isn't making any promises about it being instant. 

In terms of the EU's perspective on this, it's true that there were warnings about this prior to the 2014 referendum. But the UK was a member of the EU

However, since Brexit, things have changed considerably, with a number of leading EU figures such Guy Verhofstadt talking positively about our chances. We'd have to apply to join, but ultimately, they're pretty sympathetic to our cause. A number of academics have outlined why it's likely it would happen, and The London School of Economics last year posted a blog post outlining how this might happen. 

9 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

I know lots have said voting Indy doesn't mean SNP being in control but lets be realistic, they'd be in charge at the start whilst everything wad set up and then our alternatives would be brand new start ups or voting for the british funded exisiting parties, I can't help but imagine it being anything other than utter chaos.

Well yeah, of course. But you're acting as if Liz Truss, Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg would be in charge of the process, but for the most part, whether you like them or not, the SNP absolutely has the competence within its ranks to set up an effective transition team. 

In spite of everything I've just said - I'm not an SNP loyalist. I just don't think they're this ongoing disaster that you're suggesting that they are. There are positives and there are negatives. If Labour's stance on the constitution wasn't what it was, I'd have a difficult decision to make come election time - I think Anas Sarwar is the best leader they've had in years, and he pisses all over Keir Starmer. In an independent Scotland, the chance of him becoming First Minister would be far higher. As it stands, I need to vote for the SNP if I'm to get independence. In some ways, it's a marriage of convenience. In an independent Scotland, I'd have to think long and hard about where my vote goes. 

This is a bit of a long post, but I think it's short-sighted to view a fresh referendum as a party political vote. It isn't. 

[HarmonicGenerator]

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

we're almost certainly not going to get a third one in our lifetimes.

I'm not sure about that, given the rhetoric in 2014 that we weren't going to get a second one in our lifetimes. I get the impression that as long as the SNP's in power, they'll keep trying until they get the result they want. 

I wasn't living in Scotland at the time of the first one, but I do now. I can certainly see how Brexit and the pandemic have changed things; I'd consider my vote a lot more carefully than I would have done then.

[unfitfinlay]

I'll be voting yes again.

Nothing has really changed for me since 2014. My vote then had nothing to do with the SNP, who I thought were cunts, but the weakness of the Better Together campaign, which never addressed any of my concerns about staying in the Union. In fact, that concern has got much worse. The UK is heading down a really dark road right now and I can't see how it's going to change. The combination of Boris Johnson and the sheer weakness of Labour as opposition has really laid bare the flaws in Westminster's political system. We're in a cost of living crisis, have lost the right to protest and are scrapping the human rights act. We're also going to break our agreement with the EU and breach international law, which will make things even worse. Why would anybody want to trade with us after that?

Would an Independent Scotland be worse than that? I genuinely can't imagine it would be. Maybe in the short term but at least we'd be building something rather than tearing it up.

Will it actually happen? I think it's inevitable in the long term, because the current situation just isn't sustainable. Now though, it's anyone guess. I feel like the Tories strategy has been to force the SNP into a Catalonia-style situation. They'll boycott the vote, refuse to recognise the result and likely use it as an excuse to try and rollback devolution, if not disbanding Holyrood all together. It might come down to whether the International Community recognise the result and, as toxic as the UK has been in recent years, I'm not sure that they'll be arsed.

[David]

11 hours ago, Jonny Vegas said:

Even their own economists as well as independent ones have said independence isn't possible without an increase in tax and a decrease in public spending/services.

This is a point that most people seem to be ignoring for whatever reason. Would the population be willing to accept a hike in taxes? Or a decrease in public spending? All in the name of being independent?

Let's be honest, Scotland has a pretty cushy deal at the moment. We enjoy the benefits of being part of the UK, but have a lot of autonomy to do things differently. 

[David]

9 minutes ago, unfitfinlay said:

It might come down to whether the International Community recognise the result and, as toxic as the UK has been in recent years, I'm not sure that they'll be arsed.

Apologies for the double post, but I don't think they would. Quite simply because if they did recognise a Scottish vote carried out in that way, there would be a danger of separatism popping up all over Europe, and that wouldn't be allowed.