The Trial Of Paul Heyman (Podcast Question)

[Liam O'Rourke]

On this week's podcast we're returning to our trial format to talk about a figure held more positively than our previous trials, and debate whether or not Paul Heyman's booking was more detrimental than positive in the long run for professional wrestling, and we're looking for your thoughts on the subject, considering the following elements:

*The human toll his booking created
*ECW's influence on the business in the 90s and beyond (both good and bad)
*ECW's lack of financial success
*Your opinion on his booking throughout his whole career

As always we'll read the best ones on the air and credit you accordingly, so do the positives outweigh the negatives for you or vice versa, and why?

 

EDIT - The Trial Of Paul Heyman, with your comments included, is now available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/8y4eda/SCGRadio43-TheTrialOfPaulHeyman.mp3

[Powerful_Fox]

The Trial series and the Monday Night War series are excellent podcasts for anyone who has yet to hear an SCG episode. Very well done and far and away my favourite wrestling podcast now.

 

To the matter at hand:

 

Heyman always struck me as the type of person who loved to be seen as the workaholic and the man who had to handle absolutely everything. Nowadays he makes a point of saying ECW is gone and he has moved on to the next chapter and as humble as it appears I think it is still clear he loves that idea some/many fans have about him.

 

This had both positive and negative connotations in the 90's however. A positive was... he wasn't Vince McMahon and so was able to stretch boundaries a lot more and it showed in the development of grittier storytelling and characters. A negative was... he wasn't Vince McMahon and didn't have the foresight to see changes when they were needed or, frankly, the durability.

 

Heyman no doubt played a massive part revoutionising the business for the better as without him we wouldn't have one of the most successful era's in wrestling.

In contrast, it was ECW's demise that opened to door to countless 'grabage' and modern hardcore promotions which I hate with a burning passion.

 

For me, to say Heyman is guilty of booking a promotion which would end up being detrimental to the business is preposterous as it also opened many eyes to how poor WCW and WWF were and made one company pull their finger out of their arse and get the fans interested again. Resulting in the biggest boom period in it's history.

[PowerButchi]

Doesn't matter how good someone's booking is, if you're running a business and you're ripping people off to the extent of 6 figures then you're a cunt.

[King Pitcos]

Heyman is one of the very best talkers wrestling has ever had. He's massively overrated at running/promoting/booking a company though.

[air_raid]

It's a very tough one to answer in a way because of two factors you mention :

 

*The human toll his booking created
*ECW's influence on the business in the 90s and beyond (both good and bad)

 

The human cost of what ECW did and ultimately meant to pro wrestling was very high ; by the nature of their life as an alternative where those guys went who had either been rejected outright by "The Big Two" or spat back out by them, they attracted the desperate, the troubled and the easily led. The in-ring style and the laissez-faire attitude to substance abuse in the locker room destroyed marriages, homes and lives. Without getting into the ins-and-outs of every addiction and suicide, ECW was unquestionably a poison chalice for many of the wrestlers that made it a long-term home rather than a short stop between lands afar and "the big time."

 

However, the question is posed in regards to professional wrestling, not wrestlers, and for that reason, Heyman has to be given credit for both the anarchic television style and wild brawling type of match that the WWF would successful imitate and refine in 1998, and also creating an environment where wrestlers' characters were far more realistic and true to themselves in a lot of instances. I firmly believe that the now-commonly held belief that the best gimmicks are the wrestler's own personality turned up to 11, was something that ECW was pioneering long before the WWF gave up their cheeseball characters. You only have to watch Steve Austin's promos in ECW and then observe that four months or so later the WWF wanted to call him Ice Dagger or Fang McFrost to understand where I'm going.

 

If the performance of WCW and Monday Nitro gave Vince and his crew the motivation to change what they were doing, start throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks, and eventually become more edgier and develop what we now know as "Attitude" then it was Paul Heyman and ECW that gave him the lion's share of the tools. The violence and swearing, the more frequent use of tables, more realistic characters, more on screen female talent that we were all meant to want to fuck, and even some of the smaller details you might not even notice, they're all things that ECW did first. The "worked shoot" for instance - Paul E and Joey Styles were taking regular unfiltered shots at Uncle Eric long before Jim Cornette had his little rant on Age In The Cage.

 

What I'm trying to say is that the product that the WWF transformed into did so by borrowing liberally from ECW. They saw a product whose core demographic were exactly the kind of fan - male aged 18-35 - that they knew they were losing to WCW, and so with a far more refined but similar product and the structure already in place to supply that product to millions of homes, they were able to recapture the imagination of a generation of fans who had grown up with Hulkamania but became disillusioned when as they grew up, the WWF product hadn't grown up with them, serving up clowns, plumbers and dustbin men while WCW was giving them cool cats like the nWo and cutting edge cruisers and technicians. I'm not saying that the ECW influence is the only or even the biggest reason for the WWF's resurgence (that would be Steve Austin), but I'm going to use that phrase once more - "borrowed liberally."

 

If Paul Heyman had not created what he did in that bingo hall, the Attitude Era probably wouldn't have happened. What would have happened to the WWF and in turn where professional wrestling in the States might be right now.... well, it doesn't bear thinking about.

[UK Kat Von D]

Heyman is one of the very best talkers wrestling has ever had. He's massively overrated at running/promoting/booking a company though.

He isn't overrated in terms of promoting. The fact he is held in such high regard by many is a testament to how good at promoting he actually is. He made so many nobodies into stars, some of whom he protected better than any other promoter has been able to since. Some very average guys can still make money from that run 15 years later.

 

He took chicken shit and made it into a cult following, that continued to grow once the company went out of business. You can't deny he had a clear vision for ECW to be and he cultivated that image to perfection. In terms of image and branding he has to be one of the best promoters ever.

[Liam O'Rourke]

The Trial series and the Monday Night War series are excellent podcasts for anyone who has yet to hear an SCG episode. Very well done and far and away my favourite wrestling podcast now.

 

Just wanted to post a quick thank you for that, really appreciate the kind words a great deal.

[King Pitcos]

He made so many nobodies into stars

 

If he'd done that, they'd have been drawing money in ECW. What he was good at was making nobodies seem like potential stars to McMahon and Bischoff. He was good at coming up with a broad idea that the WWF filtered into gold and did much better. Heyman can run a decent feeder system, but that's about his limit. And Triple H has done an even better job of that now. Heyman's big trick was convincing everyone his promotion was anti-WWF and anti-WCW, even though at least one of those two was keeping his ship afloat -- but he wasn't much cop at turning that faux-rebellion into revenue. Triple H (in a world of easy access to actual alternatives, no less) has managed to convince the modern equivalent of the ECW fans that WWE's own developmental fed is anti-WWE, and persuade them to subscribe to the WWE Network to see the anti-WWE show.

[PowerButchi]

He wasn't good enough of a promoter to make money, and some fucking dire promoters have turned cash over hand over fist.

 

Heyman's a fine example of wrestling's habit of overlooking how shitty of a person they are in favour of their work in the industry. Heyman ripped off countless people for an amount of money altogether in the millions, and lied to them about it so their families would struggle on the hope that he wasn't lying. He used to change flights on purpose in order to steal money from Turner. He's a fucking shit of a person. Yeah ok, ECW was well booked from 1994-96, and Smackdown was good to watch from 2002-03 (Although I don't really see the genius in "Let's just get the six best workers to wrestle in various combinations every week for a quarter of show with no real enchancement of story), but for all his good work as a mind, he's a dick of a person. A fucking cunt. I doubt Bilvis Wesley could afford a comfortable life for his family, and would porbably have been better getting a day job, but he kept working for free anyway because Paul E. would tel him it's "on it's way, this cheque will clear". He's a fucking rip off merchant, he's a cunt, and he looks like he fucking reeks. Fuck 2 years of great booking and another 2 years of alright stuff, he's an arse.

 

And actually let's look at how good a booker he really is. 2 good years in ECW, 2 decent years in Smackdown. That's 4 years. 4 years and he worked booking far more. He's got a rate of something like 50% good to 50% shit (If I'm going to be kind to him, it actually wokrs out at something like 4 good years to 8 bad ones). And even in his good years he was churning out a lot of shit as anyone who sat through prime ECW would tell you. The main events and some fueds were great. Other stuff was awful and also he had to rely on wrestling tropes which are Russorific like misogyny, and he looks down on Russo. Prime ECW was 94-96, to 97 at a push, and then he booked at least 4 years of shit. ECW lasted 8 years. Maybe a little under. Of that 8 years only 2, arguably 3 years weren't shit. So how's that a genius? He's a great self promoter who's always done well in getting himself seen in a certain light, but when you look at numbers, look at years, look at lies, and look at how much he sweats, Heyman's not a winner.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Heyman ripped off countless people for an amount of money altogether in the millions, and lied to them about it so their families would struggle on the hope that he wasn't lying.

He only did that so the IRS wouldnt go after them.

 

© Joey Styles 2014.

[air_raid]

Very well done and far and away my favourite wrestling podcast now.

 

I want to add to this - its the only podcast I listen to. I started listening because you asked us for our opinions and I wanted to hear what you guys thought of our suggestions, but I wouldn't have carried on listening if I didn't find the output interesting and the regular panel likeable and easy to listen to.

[PowerButchi]

Totally agree, one of the best podcasts out there.

 

I still don't like Old Man Jones though. He's very Scott Keithian, 2003 Vintage. But at I same time I like him because it's like having an older uncle who's into the same things as you so you can borrow videos off him.

[Really Big Shoe]

Human cost was that the hardcore style took a toll physically on the likes of Sabu and there was also the booze & pills culture, although that was existence in the business for a long time.

 

ECWs influence on the wrestling biz is huge, since they helped kickstart the Attitude Era. They took a huge gamble breaking away from the NWA and turned themselves from a small northeast independent promotion into the #3 promotion in the US. They also helped popularize lucha in the US, gave Austin the platform to take the ball and run with it. They let Brian Pillman take his Loose Cannon gimmick to the next level and gave a lot of talent opportunities they never would have got in the WWF & WcW at the time.

 

Paul E's been one of my faves since his time in WcW as Paul E Dangerously and when he went to Eastern he was given the chance to run the show. One name who is rarely mentioned in connection with Paul is Eddie Gilbert, I think he took a lot from Eddies booking style from Memphis plus the garbage style from FMW and changed the whole dynamics of pro wrestling from family entertainment into one which appealed to the 18 to 34 demographic. using real music as themes, the pulp fiction promos, the grungey style production all that worked tremendously well at the time.

 

As for the legacy, you can't catch lightning in a bottle twice but Ecws success saw the likes of CZW, XPw, 3Pw, Mlw and countless others. Paul E wasn't great with finances and is rightly taken to task for that. But he is the mad scientist of pro wrestling, does a superb job with Brock and without ECW we never would have seen the Attitude Era, WcW could have put Vince out of business and the whole landscape of the wrestling biz could be very different. With greater financial management and if they could have kept hold of their stars ECW would still be around today as the innovators of pro wrestling and the biz would be a whole lot better of for it. Just my 2 cents

[ColinBollocks]

Never really rated ECW much at all, but his Smackdown stint was decent, so overall not sure I rate him much as a booker. He was pretty amazing at the branding part of it, however. Vince McMahon has probably made more money off ECW than Heyman has.

 

 

As a performer, he can be as good as anybody. If you want a big time promo for the big time match currently there is no one better. Give him midcard guff and it's still going to be guff.

[Liam O'Rourke]

Air_Raid, Butchi, you are both great men, thanks very much for positive review, always love your input and it's encouraging to see B-)

 

With that said, I want to thank everyone for the responses in this thread, we got to read a good few of them on the show, which is now available to listen to at the following link:

 

http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/web/8y4eda/SCGRadio43-TheTrialOfPaulHeyman.mp3

 

The Heyman Trial has occured, as both prosecution and defence debate the hardcore style, the human toll, drugs, ECW's influence on WWF Attitude and impact on the Monday Night War, just how key they really were to the stars that got signed by the Big Two, his role booking Smackdown, eye for talent and much more in an effort to convince our neutral judge, and of course reading your statements on Paul E as well. Will he be found guilty? These shows are always fun, check it out and let us know what you think~!