UFC 182: Jones vs Cormier

[David]

Like I said, I'm looking forward to the fight, I hope he wins, he is a Top Level guy who has a great chance of walking away with the title, I just don't get the contradictions sometimes from fighter to fighter.

 

Yeah, neither do I. It's best not to bother about it though. The UFC has its own way of doing things.

[pryko]

 

Like I said, I'm looking forward to the fight, I hope he wins, he is a Top Level guy who has a great chance of walking away with the title, I just don't get the contradictions sometimes from fighter to fighter.

 

Yeah, neither do I. It's best not to bother about it though. The UFC has its own way of doing things.

 

True.  Like you said in the previous post though, he's beaten a who's who of UFC Heavyweights.  I don't think that is right to do that, and then decide to jump down a division straight to a title shot.  Cormier clears out the Heavyweight division of contenders, then chooses not to gight Cain and drop to 205.

 

How many decent 155'ers dropped to 145 thinking they could fight to a title shot, and failed.  Just because they're sucessful in another weight class, dopesn't mean they'll do the same in a lower division, yet some guys can do it and get almost instant title fights.

[wandshogun09]

If he'd have dropped straight from Heavyweight and got a title shot, that would have been fine.  he'd have been coming off of wins over Roy Nelson and Frank Mir.  But he dropped to 205 and is coming off of wins over Patrick Cummins and Dan Henderson.

I sort of get what you mean. I disagree but I smell what you're cooking. Gustafsson was going to get a title shot off beating the unranked Jimi Manuwa. I know he'd given Jones his hardest fight by far previous to that so he was definitely worthy. But he'd still technically have been getting a title shot for beating Manuwa. So if we use that logic, who should've got the shot? I don't think anyone is going to argue against the fact that Gus and DC are the two most deserving challengers. And Gus got hurt, which led to this fight was originally booked for September. There were no better alternatives.

 

But for example, if let's say Alexander Gustaffson moved up to Heavyweight and beat Frank Mir, would that put him in line for a Heavyweight title fight?  If Donald Cerrone moved up to Middleweight and beat Rich Franklin, would he deserve a Middleweight title shot?

It depends entirely on the lay of the specific divisions. To take your two examples;

 

Gustafsson would probably get a title shot quickly at heavyweight. Maybe even with just a win over Mir. Entirely depending on if there were any other viable options. And with pickings being very slim in the way of heavyweight title challengers, one win can do it in that division.

 

Cerrone, I think you mean if he moved up to welterweight? Yeah he probably wouldn't get a title shot if he beat, let's say Koscheck. Because 170 is utterly stacked with a good four or five guys right now looking like genuine threats to the title.

 

205 is thin as fuck on legit contenders. Outside of your top four guys - Jones, Cormier, Gustafsson and Rumble (maybe add Rashad to this as well, so five) - light heavyweight is a shallow division. It never used to be but that's how it is now. So you'll see this a lot in thin divisions.

 

Heavyweight, 205 and to an extent Womens 135 will see fighters getting title shots off lesser streaks just because there's both;

 

A) a dominant champion who's already ruined most of the contenders.

 

B) which is kind of a result of 'A', a lack of depth in interesting or deserving challengers.

[lambyUK]

To simply dismiss his past achievements that were not at 205 is ridiculous pryko.

[ColinBollocks]

This definitely has that Lesnar/Mir or Silva/Sonnen feel about it.

 

I showed some colleagues the Jones/DC video (this was after them bringing up CM Punk - they don't watch wrestling or MMA) and now they've made plans to stay up and watch the PPV on BT Sport. The UFC need to get that thing to as many people as possible.

 

For me, one of the more exciting aspects of this fight is it's two legit freak athletes colliding for the first time, both having looked like Superheroes in previous bouts. Add into the mix them wanting to kill each other and you have the makings of a true one off. There are so many questions about each mans game and whether it will be nullified by the others skills; something we will only find out once they get in that cage.

 

It's a bloody shame we all have to wait a few weeks for it to finally happen. I expect this is the fight where Bruce Buffer explodes into pieces.

[lambyUK]

I've already said it, its the biggest fight of all time. Never has there been so much talent in one ring all with the added bonus of them despising one another.

[Egg Shen]

Cormier's situation is slightly different cause he's moving down from heavyweight, and he was a beast at heavyweight, for him to comfortably make 205 and look as good as he has so far (he ragdolled Henderson, 84 years old or not, nobodys ever done that), just shines the spotlight on him even more.

 

Most guys drop divisions when the going gets tough, or when they are clearly undersized to compete at a certain level. Cormier didn't do that, he dropped to go after Jon Jones.

[pryko]

Cerrone, I think you mean if he moved up to welterweight? Yeah he probably wouldn't get a title shot if he beat, let's say Koscheck. Because 170 is utterly stacked with a good four or five guys right now looking like genuine threats to the title.

Yes, I did mean Welterweight, and needed a better example than Franklin then.  Not Koscheck though, because he wouldn't beat Kosheck

 

 

To simply dismiss his past achievements that were not at 205 is ridiculous pryko.

I don't mean to dismiss his pas achievements.  I'm just saying in the UFC, the divisions should be seen as different entities.  Gilbert Melendez shouldn't get a 155 title shot again if he goes up to 170 and beats 2 guys, whoever they may be.  That isn't dismissing his achievements in that weight category.  As I have said, I see Cormier as the legit title contender and deserving of his shot at Jones.  I just don't see how he is he legit number 2 guy in the division based on his 2 fighs in that division.  It is more of a knock on the division I suppose rather than a knock on Cormier.

 

I've already said it, its the biggest fight of all time. Never has there been so much talent in one ring all with the added bonus of them despising one another.

Biggest fight until CM Punk's debut.

[wandshogun09]

I showed some colleagues the Jones/DC video (this was after them bringing up CM Punk - they don't watch wrestling or MMA) and now they've made plans to stay up and watch the PPV on BT Sport. The UFC need to get that thing to as many people as possible.

This is what I don't get. Why do they keep pulling that promo down from YouTube? It doesn't make any sense. Fair enough if they don't like other people uploading it, fine. But can't the UFC themselves put it up on their own YouTube channel? You'd think they'd want that thing to spread as widely as possible. I find it hard to believe that anyone with even a slight interest in combat sports could stumble upon that promo, watch it and then not be interested at all. They should pump that fucking thing out everywhere. The way it stands now, the only people who've seen it are the people who watched UFC 181 or the seriously 'hardcore' fans who searched for it online and watched it before it got yanked.

 

To borrow a phrase from Luke Thomas - to not pump that video out as widely as possible is 'promotional malpractice'.

 

For me, one of the more exciting aspects of this fight is it's two legit freak athletes colliding for the first time, both having looked like Superheroes in previous bouts. Add into the mix them wanting to kill each other and you have the makings of a true one off. There are so many questions about each mans game and whether it will be nullified by the others skills; something we will only find out once they get in that cage.

 

It's a bloody shame we all have to wait a few weeks for it to finally happen. I expect this is the fight where Bruce Buffer explodes into pieces.

People talk about Superfights, and they usually mean a champion from one weight class vs another champion from another weight class. I don't know if that's the cut and dry definition but it's not the one I go by. A Superfight to me has more ingredients than that. For me it's got to be a fight where you get two guys at their absolute peak, who have shown a certain level of dominance or superiority over the majority of their opposition and are finally clashing. And they also kind of need a certain something in the way of charisma or starpower or whatever to really push it into that must-see big-time fight territory. I wouldn't see Demetrious Johnson vs TJ Dillashaw as a Superfight, for example. It'd be a tremendous fight no doubt, but it just lacks that special something for me. 

 

Jones vs Cormier IS absolutely a Superfight to me. You've got two guys at the top of their game. Both virtually undefeated. Both mostly dominant. I can't recall Cormier losing a round in his career. Jones has only lost a small Jeremy Beadle-sized handful of rounds. Two of the best athletes in MMA. Two fighters with ridiculously high 'Fight IQ'. It's not a champion vs champion thing or cross-divisional thing but it kind of is if you count Cormier's Strikeforce Heavyweight GP win as a title. They're both top names in the sport with a strong number of supporters and in Jones' case especially, haters. And to top it all off they can't stand each other. I don't think it's a real actual hate thing like Rousey and Tate or Lesnar and Mir. But they're both so competitive and I think for all their talk they see each other as their biggest threat. It's the old lions fighting over territory thing. 

 

It's still nearly four weeks away. The wait is going to kill me.

[lambyUK]

That Gil Melendez scenario doesn't even make sense Pryko.

 

Cormier is an undefeated 15-0 fighter who has never lost a round of fighting, a grand Prix champion, and man handled some of the greatest heavyweights and lhws of all time. Melendez not an Olympic calibre athlete either.

 

He's never failed in a title fight like Melendez now has twice.

[herbie747]

The most I can do is eat dinner and watch telly at the same time. Any more than that and I short circuit.

 

Sometimes I stop breathing if I'm eating & watching TV at the same time, and the TV grabs my attention for a moment & I zombie out. Have to snap out of it.

[herbie747]

 

Like I said, I'm looking forward to the fight, I hope he wins, he is a Top Level guy who has a great chance of walking away with the title, I just don't get the contradictions sometimes from fighter to fighter.

 

Yeah, neither do I. It's best not to bother about it though. The UFC has its own way of doing things.

 

 

There are no contradictions - it's always about money - and it should be. It's a business.

[David]

 

 

Like I said, I'm looking forward to the fight, I hope he wins, he is a Top Level guy who has a great chance of walking away with the title, I just don't get the contradictions sometimes from fighter to fighter.

 

Yeah, neither do I. It's best not to bother about it though. The UFC has its own way of doing things.

 

 

There are no contradictions - it's always about money - and it should be. It's a business.

 

 

It also has a sporting element to it, and that has to be taken into account as well. It's all about finding a happy medium.

[kev2050]

If anyone stumbles across that awesome promo video again, can you post a link. Trying to show all my mates and the last one got taken down.

[herbie747]

It also has a sporting element to it, and that has to be taken into account as well.

 

They're not mutually exclusive though. It's a business that promotes a competitive sporting event. But the goal is always to make as much money as possible; that's why it's called 'fight promotion'.

Lesnar, Diaz, Sonnen - they all got title shots because they were PPV draws - not because they necessarily earned it. I'm just saying I don't see the contradictions that pryko referred to - UFC has always made the best decision for business. And in this case, it's giving DC a shot before Gustaffson. And McGregor might get a shot before Edgar - same MO; no contradiction.