UFC 154: 'St Pierre vs Condit'

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

UFC have pulled a little swerve and replaced the Griggs/Diabate fight on the main card with Phillipou/Ring. Not sure why? I think people who were pulling for the Cote/Sakara fight to be on the main card are gonna be pissed.

It's a racism thing, bro. Diabate's not Canadian, Ring is.

 

Doesn't really matter though. We're still seeing all the fights, regardless whether it's PPV, FX or Facebook. I remember the good old days when you couldn't watch all of the prelims until the DVD came out.

[wandshogun09]

I agree 100% Jim that GSP is the best welterweight ever. It's not even close anymore. Hughes was the man in his day and he beat all comers but GSP surpassed his accomplishments and dominance a long time ago.

 

I still think Hughes would have been considered the best up until about 2007/08 though. GSP at that point had just made his comeback from the Serra loss and although Hughes was on the downswing he'd done more at 170 than GSP at that time in my opinion. Once GSP started racking up one sided wins over all the top welterweights like Fitch, Alves, Koscheck etc, plus avenging his only 2 losses, he blew Hughes' record out the water for me. Beating Hughes 2-1 in the trilogy certainly helps as well.

 

Call me a cynic but if Condit beats him, I still do not think it legitimises Condit as the best, beating a vulnerable GSP coming of a lay-off does not do that much for me. I am picking GSP anyway and maybe I am being a butthurt Diaz fan, but I believe Condit is the opposite of Penn, he works hard and follows gameplans but does not have that much talent compared to the freaks like Jones, Anderson and GSP (2004-2009)

 

Once someone espcially talented works as hard as Condit does he will be fucked, same thing happened to Tim Sylvia, Forrest Griffin and to a lesser extent Matt Hughes (see BJ Penn) hard work eventually gets overhauled once talent starts working.

 

In short, I am not in the Condt warwagon, and will not be until he shows me something special. I see no potential to be a all-time great or the man to take GSP mantle, like I did in 2006 with GSP taking over from country bumpkin Hughes.

 

You big dirty cynic.

 

Condit's a great fighter. He doesn't compare well with Jones, Anderson or GSP but no-one does. That doesn't mean he's not legit. It just means he's not an MMAlien. You can't put Condit alongside Tim bastard Sylvia and Forrest Griffin in the "all hard work, not much talent" league.

 

 

Condit only really lacks in wrestling. Everything else in his game is tight. I agree he might not have been naturally talented but he's worked hard at it and busted his arse over the years to get where he is now. And now he's one of the most skilled fighters in the division.

 

 

His record speaks for itself. Out of 26 wins, only 2 have gone to the judges. And an equal amount of his wins have come by both TKO and submission. He can end the fight from any position, there's no safe route with Condit. Slick BJJ off his back, vicious ground and pound and submissions on top and dangerous and unpredictable striking. Not to mention he has a rock chin and never gets discouraged in a fight.

 

That's everything you could want in a fighter.

 

He doesn't have to legitimise himself in my opinion. He's already there. He's top level. Whether you agreed with the Diaz decision or not (and on the rewatch I gave it 3-2 to Diaz), you have to give him his due. He took Diaz the distance, frustrated the fuck out of him and ran him a razor close in almost a purely stand up fight which most thought would favour Diaz. He was the first in over 5 years to hang with Diaz on the feet and give him a real run for his money and did well enough to win a decision. That's more than Penn, Daley, Cyborg, Zaromskis etc were able to do.

 

Condit is the most underrated welterweight in the UFC bar none in my opinion.

 

He KO'd Dong Hyun Kim

 

A man previously undefeated. Officially at least because the Karo fight got overturned to a No Contest. Regardless no-one had ever come close to stopping Stun Gun until Condit put him away in round 1.

 

He KO'd Dan Hardy

 

Yeah Hardy's not considered elite so it's easy to diminish this win. But at the time of the fight that wasn't the tune everyone was singing. Nearly everyone was picking Hardy to win this fight. Also, Hardy had never been KO'd before this fight, and hasn't been KO'd since. Condit broke his chin virginity.

 

TKO'd Rory MacDonald

 

Condit doesn't get nearly enough credit for this one. And why? Just because Condit got battered the first 2 rounds. If anything I find that more impressive that he was able to come back from a total, complete domination to not only win the 3rd round but stop him.

 

Again, whether you agree with the stoppage or not (even Rory agreed with it, "He was kicking my ass. Good stoppage") is irrelevant. It shows Condit is never out of a fight and will give 100% right until the last second of the fight.

 

This is still Rory's only loss. I find it odd that no-one ever really gives Condit his props for this win.

 

 

Everyone's all over Rory's cock and saying he's the second coming of GSP/Jones/Jesus Christ etc. Yeah? Well Condit took that boy to school. He took the best Rory had and came back to beat the shit out of him in the 3rd. No-one's won a round off Rory since then.

 

Also, the Ellenberger fight. He survived this...

 

and this...

 

And came back to win the fight

 

If you've seen Ellenberger fight you know the kind of power that guy has in his hands. Condit also showed in that fight that he can be effective against good wrestlers. Again, it's easy to pick holes in this now that Ellenberger's cardio issues have been exposed and stuff. But he's still a really powerful puncher and a great wrestler who everyone was comparing to GSP for his ability to transition from striking to wrestling and vice versa.

 

Condit stifled him from the bottom for a lot of the fight and was able to constantly threaten with submissions and even managed to escape either back to his feet or reverse the position and wind up on top. Not saying he can do this to GSP but is shows he's not just the type of guy to lay around feeling sorry for himself and getting dejecting in a fight. He's always working to improve his position and/or threaten with his own offence.

 

Some more examples of his ground game...

 

Armbarring the wrestler Brock Larson

 

Triangling wrestler and wifebeating cunt Frank Trigg

 

Reversing position on Judo standout Dong Hyun Kim

 

Almost ripping off Takuya Wada's arm

 

Luckily for Georgy this fight isn't under Pride rules...

 

Condit is awesome. And the shite he's had from Sherdogmongs since the Diaz fight is pathetic.

 

And his wife is fit

 

[David]

I've seen no reason to change my original opinion on the fight;

 

I'm taking Condit to stop St-Pierre in this fight.

I think Condit catches GSP and puts him away.

[wandshogun09]

Besam Yousef is now injured and off the card.

 

The good news is that Matt Riddle is still on the card and will now be fighting...

 

 

Source: http://www.yourmma.tv/news/details.asp/id/...dle-ufc-154.htm

 

Cracking fight. I actually hope they fuck Diabate vs Griggs off to Facebook and get this on FX.

[lambyUK]

Should be a cracking fight that one. However, if it's the Maguire that turns up who turned up in Nottingham last month then he is screwed. He looked completely out of shape. To be honest, Maguire should consider dropping down a division.

[jimufctna24]

Wand - My point was more when exceptional talent works hard, hard work and decent talent is not enough, of course Condit is more talented than Sylvia. I am not saying Condit is not talented, he is as said very skilled, but I do not see him as the next big thing at WW or in the UFC.

 

Only maybe one fighter in a generation comes along like a Anderson at MW or Jones at LHW, that really sets a high standard that makes them be in a class of their own and I do not see Condit becoming that good.

 

He is a good striker and has decent BJJ, but he is not outstanding at anything in my view. It was hard work and smart game-planning that beat Diaz, which is fair enough well played, but in a straight boxing match or straight BJJ match Diaz would smoke him, he has the better skills but Condit used his skills better (I still feel Diaz won, but Condit made Diaz fight his fight), just like Forrest and Hughes used to against more talented guys.

 

It could takes us years for the next GSP to turn up or it maybe will happen next year, maybe its Rory Macdonald (still not proven enough) but I do not see from a legacy standpoint that in 20 years time we will be saying that Condit is in the all-time stakes. I could be wrong though.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, I'm not saying he'll go on to be the pound for pound-Anderson Silva-best ever type of fighter. Definitely not but the point I'm getting at is he's not fighting GSP for the 'Best Welterweight ever' title in a few weeks. He's just fighting him for the Welterweight title and if he wins he's made his own mark in MMA history as the man who ended GSP's reign on the throne at 170.

 

If he pulls this off people won't look back in years to come and say "Well GSP was coming off a layoff/surgery". They'll just look at GSP's fight record on wikipedia, see win after win after win and then Condit's name as the man who stopped his run.

 

See the chap in my sig. People can discredit that win all they like as a fluke but Serra went in there and took GSP out inside a round. He'll always be remembered for that. It defined his career. Condit could be catching him at a good time and at a time where GSP is coming off an even better streak than when Serra beat him.

 

So while I totally get what you're saying, no-one should be expecting every champion to be a Silva/Jones/GSP type freak. It's like Condit can't win even if he does win in the eyes of a lot of fans.

 

I guess my argument boils down to this line you posted..

 

Call me a cynic but if Condit beats him, I still do not think it legitimises Condit as the best, beating a vulnerable GSP coming of a lay-off does not do that much for me

 

That's fair enough and I agree it wouldn't put him as the best WW in MMA history or anything. But no-one can seriously look at Condit if he's coming off back to back wins over Diaz and GSP and say he's not legit.

 

Should be a cracking fight that one. However, if it's the Maguire that turns up who turned up in Nottingham last month then he is screwed. He looked completely out of shape. To be honest, Maguire should consider dropping down a division.

 

Yeah I'd like to see him at 155. Maybe that still can happen down the line, remember he's taking this on short notice so for all we know he might have been thinking of dropping to lightweight but got the call for this fight and stepped in.

 

He looked poor against Hathaway but it's worth considering that Hathaway is a huge 170 and also a very good wrestler so it was a bad match up for Maguire from the off. To use his biggest strength (His GJJ - yes Gypsy Jiu-Jitsu) he'd have to take down the bigger, stronger wrestler.

 

Riddle's got some wrestling as well so this could be tough but he'll also brawl and go for submissions. He's defo more a risk taker than Hathaway so it will leave more openings for Maguire. Great fight.

 

I'll go with a 2nd round Maguire submission.

[jimufctna24]

Condit is legit, he is in the top 5 fighters at 170lbs. But I do not feel if he beats GSP he will be the outright best given the circumstances and despite beating the guy who is considered the best.

 

The reason if he wins that does not do much for me is the circumstances behind it. GSP will be coming of a long lay-off and injuries, it is not like in 2006 when GSP beat Hughes when they were both at their best and there was a changing of the guard, or in 2011 with Jones beating Shogun. Its more like Larry Holmes catching Ali past his best. Now that is not Condits fault he can only beat what is in front of him.

 

I have to disagree if he does win people won't look back to the circumstances, people today look back at why Mike Tyson lost to Buster Douglas with Tyson not commiting himself, and Michael Schumacher legacy in F1 is tarnished slightly due to him beating competition that were inferior to previous generations. People do remember these things.

 

I understand that not everyone who wins a title is the next Anderson or Jones, but Condit through no fault of his own and due to his hard work and decent amount of talent has been put in a situation where he can severely overachieve.

[David]

Condit is legit, he is in the top 5 fighters at 170lbs. But I do not feel if he beats GSP he will be the outright best given the circumstances and despite beating the guy who is considered the best.

Surely it comes down to how he wins though, yeah? If he wins a decision in the same fashion as he did against Nick Diaz then I guess there'll be those who say that St-Pierre was maybe a step off, a bit rusty and the like.

 

If he comes out and stops St-Pierre though, that's a whole new story, surely?

 

He will have beaten the widely regarded top two fighters in the division back to back. If that doesn't make you the #1 in the division, especially if he stops St-Pierre, then I don't know what else the guy can do.

[jimufctna24]

To a degree, yes

 

But I am not sure beating up GSP for 25 mins is a lesser achievement than catching him once and knocking him out. 25 mins of controlling GSP and beating him, is better than a flash of success with a knockout punch (as Wand said with Serra, people may claim fluke). Plus if he can control GSP who is the master of control for such a long time means he is beating him at his own game.

 

I would be very impressed, but not shell shocked like I would be if GSP was at full strength which I do not think he will be.

 

Some guys no matter what they do never win the public's approval, Lennox Lewis comes to mind. Cindit could not do anymore than beat what it is front of him, but some even if he beats GSP will not buy into him all togeather.

[wandshogun09]

I have to disagree if he does win people won't look back to the circumstances, people today look back at why Mike Tyson lost to Buster Douglas with Tyson not commiting himself, and Michael Schumacher legacy in F1 is tarnished slightly due to him beating competition that were inferior to previous generations. People do remember these things.

 

Yeah fair point. But people just like to make excuses. Tyson might have not been 100% but he'd been living that lifestyle for a while and was still blasting guys away. The cold truth that the Tyson apologists don't like to admit is that Buster Douglas fought the fight of his life that night. He came in more motivated than ever after the loss of his Mom and in the best physical shape of his career. If Tyson sold him short that's his fault.

 

Can't comment on Schumacher because I know fuck all about F1.

 

But I agree with your general point. Some people will remember. Not everyone though, stuff like that is brought up by fight fans who follow it all closely. The wider audience just see winners and losers.

 

But I am not sure beating up GSP for 25 mins is a lesser achievement than catching him once and knocking him out. 25 mins of controlling GSP and beating him, is better than a flash of success with a knockout punch (as Wand said with Serra, people may claim fluke). Plus if he can control GSP who is the master of control for such a long time means he is beating him at his own game.

 

Nobody controls GSP though. That's not the way you beat him surely. His only 2 losses were quick, nobody has ever controlled GSP for any length of time. If the only way people will be impressed with Condit is if he controls and dominates GSP for 25 mins then I'm assuming there's nothing he can do to win people around.

 

I think Condit's best bet is to try to strike as much as possible and if (more likely when) he's taken down stay as active as he can, constantly moving and threatening off his back, hopefully to improve his position or even enough to make GSP hesitant to go there again.

 

Way easier said than done but Condit has to go in willing to take risks to win this in my opinion. It's not like the Diaz fight where he played a bit of a cautious game and was more of a counter striker. That gameplan worked against Diaz because it was always going to lead to Diaz getting wound up and making mistakes. If you're cautious against GSP you'll spend the whole fight eating jabs and superman punches or on your back getting punched and elbowed for 5 rounds. Waiting for an opening that won't come is a trap many a GSP opponent has fallen into before. It doesn't work.

 

The last man to beat him is also the last man to really just throw caution to the wind and take the fight to him. Serra came out unfazed by GSP's reputation, he had nothing to lose, was a massive underdog and he just said "fuck it" and went out aggressive and committed 100% to grabbing the fight by the bollocks. It paid off.

 

Surely it comes down to how he wins though, yeah? If he wins a decision in the same fashion as he did against Nick Diaz then I guess there'll be those who say that St-Pierre was maybe a step off, a bit rusty and the like.

 

If he comes out and stops St-Pierre though, that's a whole new story, surely?

 

He will have beaten the widely regarded top two fighters in the division back to back. If that doesn't make you the #1 in the division, especially if he stops St-Pierre, then I don't know what else the guy can do.

 

Yeah that's exactly how I see it. I'll say right now I don't see Condit winning a decision over GSP. If it goes to the judges then I'm about 90% sure it will be a Canadian hand raised. But if Condit finishes GSP then he's #1 for me. He'll have the belt and he'll have beaten the 2 men who have been previously dominating the top 2 welterweight divisions in MMA. What more can he do?

 

Again, he won't be seen as an 'all-time great' but that's not the argument. He just has to win this fight.

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

The worst thing about this fight is the fact that GSP has an inbuilt excuse for losing. Not that he himself would use it, but his fans definitely will. Condit won't get half as much credit as he would deserve if he beats or even finishes GSP. It'll be, "Oh, GSP's rusty, it's not the same GSP, he came back from a career ending injury." St Pierre is such a freak athlete that he may have rehabbed himself to a point where he's just as good as he was before he left. GSP could even return better than he was, but we'll never know for sure, if Condit wins it'll be seen as GSP failing rather than Condit succeeding.

[jimufctna24]

The control point was just a opinion of what would be more impressive, of course Condit will not try that, he is too smart and will fight to his strengths and GSP few weaknesses.

 

Sorry to bang this point on because you said it was a fair point Wand, but the Holmes vs Ali point maybe be my most strong. The wider audience do not judge Ali on that and do not exactly laud Holmes for it either, I could say Trevor Berbick as well.

 

I cannot blame Condit for the circumstances like you cannot blame Holmes or Berbick, and maybe he will be seen as the best afterwards, but people will not warm to him as champion like they did not warm to Holmes, the circumstances sadly make it more tainted.

 

I am being a bit negative about it all, because whilst I respect and like Condit I am no massive fan nor am I that excited about watching him fight compared to other guys like Nate Diaz and Werdum. Its all personal choice really.

 

EDIT: Shane O Mac, may have just hit the nail on the head, it is common knowledge before the fight that GSP is not at his best, leaving a sour taste no matter what Condit does.

[wandshogun09]

The worst thing about this fight is the fact that GSP has an inbuilt excuse for losing. Not that he himself would use it, but his fans definitely will. Condit won't get half as much credit as he would deserve if he beats or even finishes GSP. It'll be, "Oh, GSP's rusty, it's not the same GSP, he came back from a career ending injury." St Pierre is such a freak athlete that he may have rehabbed himself to a point where he's just as good as he was before he left. GSP could even return better than he was, but we'll never know for sure, if Condit wins it'll be seen as GSP failing rather than Condit succeeding.

 

Spot on and that's my gripe with a lot of what I'm reading (not Jim just generally). If Condit say comes out and sparks GSP in the first round, I have no doubt Sherdog will explode with 'Condit fluked it', 'GSP is a shell of himself - no way a fully fit GSP loses to Condit' type posts.

 

That could be true but it would be too early to declare GSP as damaged goods. If GSP came out and wrecked his next opponent then it would be clear he isn't shot. We just won't know until GSP gets back in there and we see how he's looking.

 

The pre-fight excuses really rub me the wrong way though I agree. Condit is fucked either way in some ways here because if Condit wins he beat a one legged man, if Condit loses he lost to a one legged man. It cheapens Condit's performance whatever the result.

 

I don't think GSP would ever come out and use it as an excuse but the opinion would be put about so much that it would kind of stain Condit's efforts win or lose.

[wandshogun09]

Sorry to bang this point on because you said it was a fair point Wand, but the Holmes vs Ali point maybe be my most strong. The wider audience do not judge Ali on that and do not exactly laud Holmes for it either, I could say Trevor Berbick as well.

 

I cannot blame Condit for the circumstances like you cannot blame Holmes or Berbick, and maybe he will be seen as the best afterwards, but people will not warm to him as champion like they did not warm to Holmes, the circumstances sadly make it more tainted.

 

No, you're right Jim. Your point is correct in that if Condit is able to win, GSP's injury and layoff will raise questions.

 

But the difference in the Ali/Holmes case is that Ali was absolutely physically fucked by that point. He should never have been in there in the first place. It's not the same case with GSP, he hasn't taken punishment like Ali had, he doesn't slur his words and the last we saw of him he was winning fights comfortably. There were a lot of people begging for Ali to retire long before he fought Holmes.

 

If Condit wins it's not like Larry Holmes beating up a flabby old physically wrecked Ali. Although I understand the point you're making and agree, GSP losing this fight wouldn't be as drastic as Ali at the end.

 

Anyway, we're probably all wasting our time. It's all assumptions about GSP until we see him in there on fight night. He may not have slipped at all, he might come back rejuvinated for all we know and better than ever. He's sat on the sidelines for nearly 2 years watching Jones and Silva rule their divisions. The break might have been good for him in the long run, physically and mentally it might have done him good. We just don't know.

 

But it makes this fight a lot more interesting in my opinion. GSP has seemed like he was made out of iron for so long, to have all these question marks on him makes this fight very intriguing I think.