General politics discussion thread

[David]

This article from the BBC's Gavin Hewitt hits the nail on the head for me;

 

The attention that British National Party leader Nick Griffin is currently receiving stems from the European elections. The BNP got nearly a million votes and ended up with two seats in the European parliament. He and Andrew Brons became MEPs. They have not, as yet, made any impact in Brussels, but perhaps that is not surprising as their aim is for Britain to withdraw from the EU.

 

Some people were surprised by the numbers who voted for a party which is regularly denounced as racist. There was a similar reaction in 2006 when the BNP won a clutch of council seats in Barking and Dagenham. I did a report on their campaign for the BBC's Ten O'Clock News. Initially I thought it would be difficult to find people who would openly admit on camera that they intended to vote for the far-right party. It was easier than I imagined.

 

At Dagenham Working Men's Club I found potential BNP voters, and some were willing to talk openly. Among then was a brick-layer, a trainee nurse and an electrician. I got them to look straight into the camera. They gave their names, their occupations and said they intended to vote for BNP. All were either former Labour voters or came from Labour-voting families. None of them knew much about the BNP beyond the fact that it was anti-immigration. They knew nothing about the history or the background of the party's leaders or activists.

 

The mood in the club was one of sullen resentment. The neighbourhood around them was changing rapidly. Their known world had gone. I remember that one of them had got hold of the Labour manifesto from 1997. There was only a brief reference to immigration but the man read out the words "every country must have firm control over immigration and Britain is no exception". They felt betrayed and voiceless. In their view Labour had not been straight and no-one had asked them whether they wanted a sharp rise in immigration.

 

Certainly in that club the bond between the white working class and Labour had been broken. They seemed isolated, adrift and in that mood voted for the BNP. They did not particularly like the party. Theirs was a protest vote, a cry to be heard.

 

Later the Labour MP for Dagenham Jon Cruddas criticised my report. He felt the publicity could benefit the BNP. In fact it had been one of his Labour colleagues, Margaret Hodge, who had drawn our attention to the area when she warned that the shortage of housing for white working class people was driving people into the arms of the BNP. In the event the BNP did well and now have 12 councillors in the area.

 

It was easy to show the BNP for what they really were. Their election literature did that.

 

Many of the people I met knew that the BNP was regarded as a racist party but it did not deter them from voting for the party. They did not care because they felt ignored and sidelined. I also recall a comment from a colleague. He said the white working class was probably the only section of society that could be openly abused. They could be called "trash" or "chavs"' and no one objected. What I took away from Barking and Dagenham was the need for the mainstream parties to re-connect to white working families.

[patiirc]

If I understand you correctly, your problem is not with any aspect of immigration, but with the general public's irrational media-fuelled fears of immigration. I really don't see what amount of "plain-speaking" from leading politicians can solve that problem.

 

Plain speaking and getting away from all the hyperbole, confirming what actions, if they must, have them in a straightforward way that is easily accessible to the voters rather than wrapped up in party 'pointscoring' politics. Could help quell much of th hysteria surrounding the issue, even if to begin with it is a tad simplistic.

 

The same could be said about Europe, take away all the 'myth' and crap that has been built up over the years and being a bit simple, in terms of setting out a basic view, has the potential to help restore some of the faith in politics and politicians.

 

It would allow a connection on an everyday level rather than being caught up in spin, distraction and trying to appease certain sections of society, rather than society as a whole. Inturn you may find that people have more of a connection with politics rather than going, 'its not for me because they are a bunch of charlatans, thiefs, hypocrites etc etc. I know people who havent voted and will not vote ( not even spoiling their papers if they think no one is worthy) becuase they cant be bothered as they feel they cant change anytghing because politicians cant connect with them. Trying to engaging people who are disinterested, burn out or whatever would be a way of ensuring that least parliament would have to buck up their ideas, rather than the same old, same old, and would least be a start no matter how small the steps.

 

We are 8 months or less away from a general election and for the first time since I can remember, there is the potential of chucking out the old order, if people can be engaged. No more swinging from Labour to Conservative governments, because that is what is expected ( and bores the shit out of people becuase they percieve they cant change it)

[David]

The same could be said about Europe, take away all the 'myth' and crap that has been built up over the years and being a bit simple, in terms of setting out a basic view, has the potential to help restore some of the faith in politics and politicians.

 

I'm still wondering whatever happened to the referendum on the EU we should have got

[patiirc]

The same could be said about Europe, take away all the 'myth' and crap that has been built up over the years and being a bit simple, in terms of setting out a basic view, has the potential to help restore some of the faith in politics and politicians.

 

I'm still wondering whatever happened to the referendum on the EU we should have got

 

Kerzactly.. it just adds to the distrust and helps create more of an mythos around it.

 

 

Say your gunna do something, just effing do it... referendum, half and half pubs ( ive even given up smoking but,), rather than coming up with even more eleaborate crap as to why you havent....

[David]

Saying that, I doubt a referendum would make much difference, as the Government would likely just go down the same route as the Irish Government did.

 

They had a referendum in June of 2008, which saw the treaty voted against by the majority.

 

That would be the end of the story you may think. I'm fairly sure if the vote had been a 'yes' majority we wouldn't have heard anything else about it. It would have been a done deal, right?

 

Surely the same should apply to a 'no' majority as well.

 

Think again.

 

Another vote was held a few weeks ago, which saw a turnout of just over half the population.

 

This vote declared a 'yes' majority.

 

Maybe it's a "best of three" deal or something, eh?

 

Or, they simply keep voting until they get the answer they want.

[Kiffy]

I was expecting Straw to make a tit of himself on immigration after the butchered quote Harry posted before the show but I don't think he did. He's definitely in denial if he genuinely thinks fears about immigration haven't increased BNP support but what he said about it was right. Stuff like putting a cap on population is impossible.

 

It was a good show. Griffin made an absolute tit of himself. He was shown up totally as a lying bastard who cannot back up any of the things he spews. I thought Waasi was the best guest. She conducted herself well, made good counter arguments and didn't have her head in the sand about key issues.

 

The only fear I have is how large the proportion of people who, like Harry, somehow feel that Griffin came off well on the show is. All we've heard from the media in the last few days is that British people are intelligent enough to make their own minds up about the BNP. I don't think that is true for a lot of people.

 

I could be wrong, but from what I remember reading the expenses scandal had far more to do with the BNP getting members in the MEP than anything else.

Essentially, the BNP actually gained less votes this european election than the time before. Their improved standing was nothing with do with extra votes and everything to do with record low turnout. Which can be attributed to the expense scandal.

As far as griffin coming off well on the show? Can't understand how anyone would think that myself. He utterly embarrased himself at every turn. Constantly back peddling and being caught out in direct lies early on. His peddling of "I'm so misquoted, it's so unfair," came apart extraordinarily quickly. His pretending he wasn't with the head of the KKK, swiftly followed by a photo of it, his laughing about holocaust denial. He got destroyed. By his own admissions nazi's hate him for moving the BNP in a more moderate direction, the general population hates him for still being a Nazi, he tried to claim his "Send every last one back," line was to pull the wool over Nazi's eyes - exposing him as a man who is quite happy to lie utterly at the very least.

By the end you could see in his eye's he knew he'd fucked it, his best chance and he'd been utterly destroyed.

I really enjoyed it

 

Granted I'm very anti-BNP an

[David]

By the end you could see in his eye's he knew he'd fucked it, his best chance and he'd been utterly destroyed.

I really enjoyed it

 

Judging by the feedback of actual British people today, i'd say he's far from "destroyed".

 

Both Sky & BBC news have done features which include public opinion, and ol' beady eye is getting a fair bit of public support.

 

The BBC admitting that they changed the format of Question Time to work against him is a mistake in my opinion.

 

Just saw him on Sky News making a challenge to Dimbleby & the BBC to do Question Time again, and do it properly.

 

He also made a challenge to Jack Straw for a one on one debate, one hour, televised.

 

I wouldn't have imagined any of those so-called "challenges" being considered in the past, but the viewing figures it would get may change some television channels opinions.

 

8 million fucking viewers. Has UK politics ever attracted such interest?

[Aidancorrigan]

The guys a tit and thats it... He was made a mockerey of for his views and what he says and he deserved it... His views have no place in this society.

[The King Of Swing]

I always thought that Winston Churchill being a bit of a racist cunt was a well known fact.

 

Anyway.

 

BBC Gets Hundreds Of Complaints Over BNP

 

The BBC says it received more than 350 complaints after BNP leader Nick Griffin appeared on Question Time.

 

The bulk of complaints - more than 240 - accused the BBC of being biased against the BNP, the broadcaster revealed.

 

Some 100 viewers complained about Mr Griffin being allowed on the programme, while 50 others contacted the BBC to express appreciation of the programme.

 

The BNP leader himself says his party will be complaining about the bias he considers was shown towards him.

 

During Question Time, Mr Griffin claimed his party's immigration policy was supported by the majority of the public - and insisted he was not a Nazi.

 

Facing a hostile audience, he criticised Islam and defended a former head of the Ku Klux Klan.

 

The visibly nervous Mr Griffin was branded "completely disgusting" by members of the audience as he struggled to articulate his extreme views to a highly critical panel, often resorting to inappropriate laughter.

 

At one point moderator David Dimbleby snapped at the BNP leader for smiling as he struggled to answer a question about his past denial of the Holocaust.

 

He was booed as he attacked Jack Straw's father for being in jail for not fighting in the war while his own father was serving in the RAF.

 

The show opened with a question asking the panel whether it was right that Winston Churchill had been adopted by the BNP.

 

Mr Griffin said that his party would have been the only one to accept Churchill's views, particularly those on Islam.

 

One black member of the audience said the MEP was a "disgrace" who was trying to poison the minds of the electorate.

 

"The vast majority of the audience think what you stand for, your views, are disgusting," he said.

 

Another audience member added: "You would be surprised how many people would have a whip round to buy you a ticket, and your supporters, to go to the South Pole; it's a colourless landscape, it would quite suit you."

 

Mr Griffin said that he was being painted as a "monster" by the press who were peddling "terrible lies about him".

 

Dimbleby put to him: "What are the lies? Were they lying when they said you denied the Holocaust?"

 

Mr Griffin replied: "I have not got a conviction for denying the Holocaust."

 

Dimbleby pressed him again about whether he had denied the event before snapping: "Why are you smiling? It's not particularly amusing."

 

Sky's chief political correspondent Jon Craig said: "It was a propaganda victory, certainly.

 

"But more likely a propaganda victory for the organisation that staged this TV debate rather than for the BNP leader, Nick Griffin.

 

"Griffin was exposed on Question Time as a nasty piece of work, with unpleasant views on race, immigration, Islam, homosexuality and Winston Churchill."

 

The BBC has defended Mr Griffin's appearance on the show, insisting it was "appropriate" to invite him to appear given the level of support his party achieved in the last European elections.

 

The BNP will have the right to get free television advertising during next year's General Election.

 

The far-right party will be given at least one party election broadcast in the three weeks before polling day.

 

Under broadcasting law, any party contesting at least a sixth of the seats in England is entitled to a free broadcast of up to four minutes and 40 seconds.

 

I wonder what the "facism is bad but ban anyone we don't agree with" brigade have to say about that?

 

As for Big Nick making a tit of himself well thats what almost always happens to politicians on QT and if Big Nick had not been on there it would have just been the usual lynching of New Labour who have been nothing but a disaster since Comrade Brown took over though Phoney Blair (who looks set to be our first ever EU Dictator....opps I mean President) wasn't much better either.

[BionicRedneck]

Considering 8 million people watched it, 350 complaints is fuck all. Jan Moir got 20,000 last week.

 

Anyway, this made me chuckle...

 

[The King Of Swing]

HAHA funny pic

 

As for the complaints it usually only takes about a dozen for the beeb to brick it so 140 complaining about the BNP being bullied is a pretty large amount.

 

The beeb bottled it plain and simple and changing the format simply to target Nick was the wrong way to go about things and only plays into the victim game for the BNP yet again.

[JNLister]

Have the BBC actually said they changed the format?

 

As far as I know, the questions are usually chosen based on what the people in the audience put forward as wanting to ask, in order of how many people ask about a particular topic (with a lighthearted one stuck at the end). It's not hard to imagine that the vast majority of people who wanted to be in the audience for a show with Nick Griffin would ask questions about the BNP. Indeed, back in the summer, they had an edition where every question was about MPs expenses.

Edited October 23, 2009 by JNLister

[nfc90210]

 

...The only fear I have is how large the proportion of people who, like Harry, somehow feel that Griffin came off well on the show is. All we've heard from the media in the last few days is that British people are intelligent enough to make their own minds up about the BNP. I don't think that is true for a lot of people.

 

Bingo, the general media has sorely overestimated the general intelligence of the native populace. The belief Griffin came off well according to some people in spite of reality is utterly indicative of their support no matter what, and their ill reasoning isn't going to be changed by logic nor fact.

 

When you're preaching to people

Edited October 23, 2009 by nfc90210

[Aidancorrigan]

The people that thought he came off well are idiots. Honestly did anyone watch it right. How can a guys view change so much in a short time to a non racist view. Sharing a stage with kkk memebers, memebers of his party making stupid comments. The guy doesnt come off well, he wont make it far and his views on islam are wild. As it was said everything they are based on is scare mongering(sp?)

 

The party hasn't moved on in any way shape or form if you have to say certain things in front of certain people.

[JNLister]

The thing about the show is that there may well still be people who saw it and still think BNP is a party worth voting for. While that's sad, we've at least established that those people are not responsive to reasoned argument so we can stop wasting time on them and put that effort into making sure you get the tiny increase in turnout (voting for ANY other party) to make sure the BNP never get elected again.

Edited October 23, 2009 by JNLister