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Devon Malcolm

Little Tommy Robinson

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1 minute ago, Keith Houchen said:

Nor did they die overnight after Griffin being on Question Time, they actually got bigger. That was what I was addressing.  They were given a platform and that platform swelled their party.

 

Point being, it still remained a fringe political movement that failed to make waves electorally or insert itself into mainstream British political discourse, Question Time appearance included.

You may argue that Robinson and Farage have successfully done this, but I believe that their media exposure (CONSTANT appearances on the BBC, dreadful interviews with sneering journalists, images of tape over his mouth etc)  have been ham-fisted, irresponsible and counterproductive and is the actual problem, rather than the appearances themselves. 

7 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

ÔĽŅ Remember, posts in Off Topic don't count, so your 1000th would've been wrestling related!ÔĽŅ

I just checked and its the opening post in the wrestling books quotes thread, the one hardly anyone has responded to, somewhat fitting :D . 

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16 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

But they didn't support his right to say it, therefore it wasn't about free speech.  That's how it works, it's an all or nothing deal. If you want to champion someones right to be free talking about noncing kids, then go for it.

They didn't support his right to say it? Didn't they just stop supporting him personally? I mean, I'd say that someone has the right to say what they want, but they also have to accept the consequences of saying it. If someone like this Milo guy wants to talk about underage sex then that's on him, he'll need to live with the repercussions you'll face in a decent society when you say something like that.

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5 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

Point being, it still remained a fringe political movement that failed to make waves electorally or insert itself into mainstream British political discourse, Question Time appearance included.

But they got bigger because they were given a platform on the state broadcaster, they didn't get smaller.

 

6 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

You may argue that Robinson and Farage have successfully done this, but I believe that their media exposure (CONSTANT appearances on the BBC, dreadful interviews with sneering journalists, images of tape over his mouth etc)  have been ham-fisted, irresponsible and counterproductive and is the actual problem, rather than the appearances themselves. 

I honestly think that had the Green party been given the airtime UKIP had been given, they'd have been bigger than UKIP.  Farage has been on Question Time more times than anyone else bar the host in recent times, the BBC are complicit in their rise BECAUSE they've given them the platform.  I'm sure of course that more, shall we say, cynical members will claim it was all part of a marxist plot to legitimise UKIP to split the tory vote but there you go.

 

7 minutes ago, David said:

They didn't support his right to say it?

No, there were plenty of cries of "He's gone too far and shouldn't be allowed to say that" from his now ex supporters.  They weren't supporting free speech, they were supporting his opinions because it mirrored their own.  That became clear once he said something they didn't agree with.

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1 minute ago, Keith Houchen said:

I honestly think that had the Green party been given the airtime UKIP had been given, they'd have been bigger than UKIP.  Farage has been on Question Time more times than anyone else bar the host in recent times, the BBC are complicit in their rise BECAUSE they've given them the platform.  I'm sure of course that more, shall we say, cynical members will claim it was all part of a marxist plot to legitimise UKIP to split the tory vote but there you go.

But in all honesty, who the fuck wants to hear what some no-name from the Green Party has to say? Farage is on QT a lot because he's good TV, isn't he? He's controversial, he's got personality.

I'll happily admit, in the past I'd tune into watch QT simply because he was on it and I wanted to hear what he was going to be yammering on about. 

It's all about the numbers, brother.

3 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

No, there were plenty of cries of "He's gone too far and shouldn't be allowed to say that" from his now ex supporters.  They weren't supporting free speech, they were supporting his opinions because it mirrored their own.  That became clear once he said something they didn't agree with.

Yeah, well, that's just moronic. 

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2 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I honestly think that had the Green party been given the airtime UKIP had been given, they'd have been bigger than UKIP.  Farage has been on Question Time more times than anyone else bar the host in recent times, the BBC are complicit in their rise BECAUSE they've given them the platform.  I'm sure of course that more, shall we say, cynical members will claim it was all part of a marxist plot to legitimise UKIP to split the tory vote but there you go.

Yep, exactly this. UKIP have never had an MP elected, the only elected position Farage has held is that of MEP (and that's only because he took advantage of the fact that very few people in the UK pay attention to European elections, which makes the whole thing about "taking back control" and "sovereignty" sound stupid), and yet they got more exposure in the media than the Greens have ever had, despite them actually having an elected MP who's been returned to her seat for a few elections already.

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19 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

No, there were plenty of cries of "He's gone too far and shouldn't be allowed to say that" from his now ex supporters.  They weren't supporting free speech, they were supporting his opinions because it mirrored their own.  That became clear once he said something they didn't agree with.


Which can be easily demonstrated by the number of far-right cretins who constantly bleat on about free speech when it's a white man being prosecuted, yet are all in favour of Muslim hate preachers being locked up, or worse.

Edited by Tamura

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2 minutes ago, David said:

But in all honesty, who the fuck wants to hear what some no-name from the Green Party has to say? Farage is on QT a lot because he's good TV, isn't he? He's controversial, he's got personality.

I'll happily admit, in the past I'd tune into watch QT simply because he was on it and I wanted to hear what he was going to be yammering on about. 

It's all about the numbers, brother.

Firstly, that's a self-feeding argument. The Green rep will be a no-name because they're not given a platform, and they're not given a platform because they're a no-name.

Secondly, whilst the BBC can't be completely immune to ratings, there are certain programmes where that's irrelevant, like Question Time, because they're a part of the state broadcaster providing a public service. 

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1 minute ago, Tamura said:


Which can be easily demonstrated by the number of far-right cretins who constantly bleat on about free speech when it's a white man being prosecuted, yet all all in favour of Muslim hate preachers being locked up, or worse.

And the other way around, obviously. The problem with the far-right reaches far beyond any particular colour or religion.

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Just now, Keith Houchen said:

I honestly think that had the Green party been given the airtime UKIP had been given, they'd have been bigger than UKIP. ¬†Farage has been on Question Time more times than anyone else bar the host in recent times, the BBC are complicit in their rise BECAUSE they've given them the platform. ¬†I'm sure of course that more, shall we say, cynical members will claim it was all part of a marxist plot to legitimise UKIP to split the tory vote but there you go.ÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅÔĽŅ

 

Its not that they gave him the platform, its that they didn't question him more rigorously or challenge him on his numerous lies and deception. Responsible coverage is the most important thing here.

1 minute ago, Keith Houchen said:

But they got bigger because they were given a platform on the state broadcaster, they didn't get smaller.

Its impossible to tell if it was just that as there are other factors at play, although I grant you this may well have been one of them.

That said, they targeted and got routed in Dagenham and Stoke-on-Trent where they were predicted to have the best chance of gaining a seat in 2010, did voters in those constituencies watch QT then mobilise to vote Labour because of his performance? Its possible. 

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Just now, Carbomb said:

Firstly, that's a self-feeding argument. The Green rep will be a no-name because they're not given a platform, and they're not given a platform because they're a no-name.

No it isn't, the Green rep will be a no-name because they're likely to be as dull as dishwater and keep banging on about shit that no one cares about. I, and many others, don't tune into QT to hear a ten minute debate on how many planes should be allowed to fly into an airport, we tune in to hear middle-aged crowd members in nondescript sweater vests lose the rag while discussing hot button topics like religious freedom and immigration.

2 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Secondly, whilst the BBC can't be completely immune to ratings, there are certain programmes where that's irrelevant, like Question Time, because they're a part of the state broadcaster providing a public service. 

Yeah, you're right of course, but still¬†ūüėĀ

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4 minutes ago, David said:

No it isn't, the Green rep will be a no-name because they're likely to be as dull as dishwater and keep banging on about shit that no one cares about. I, and many others, don't tune into QT to hear a ten minute debate on how many planes should be allowed to fly into an airport, we tune in to hear middle-aged crowd members in nondescript sweater vests lose the rag while discussing hot button topics like religious freedom and immigration.

Except that wouldn't happen, because topics are directed in Question Time. The panellists have to answer the questions put to them, they don't get to rant about any old thing they feel like.

Also, I've seen and heard Caroline Lucas speak quite a few times, and she's very good. Maybe she's not as bursting with Hitlerian charisma as Farage is, but she's interesting to listen to, and frequently makes excellent arguments.

 

A question to other political wonks: have Plaid Cymru featured regularly on QT events in Wales? Because they also have way more legitimacy than UKIP do.

 

EDIT: BTW, @David¬†- thanks for saying I'm right. It's not common for me to be told that these days¬†ūüėÜ

Edited by Carbomb

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Just now, David said:

But in all honesty, who the fuck wants to hear what some no-name from the Green Party has to say? Farage is on QT a lot because he's good TV, isn't he? He's controversial, he's got personality.

I'll happily admit, in the past I'd tune into watch QT simply because he was on it and I wanted to hear what he was going to be yammering on about. 

It's all about the numbers, brother.

It's an upper rating business, brother.  But it is the state broadcaster after all.  I'd say the no name Green has to work the indies because they're being held down by the Big man in Salford, or London, or wherever they are now.  Basically, they are a no name because they haven't been afforded the same exposure as someone who was the leader of a smaller sized party.

2 minutes ago, Tamura said:

Which can be easily demonstrated by the number of far-right cretins who constantly bleat on about free speech when it's a white man being prosecuted, yet all all in favour of Muslim hate preachers being locked up, or worse.

Exactly.  I think I had a reply along the lines of "Should Anjem Chowdhury have his Twitter unbanned as well" for easy copy and paste purposes whenever a Free Tommy dingbat appeared.

2 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

Its not that they gave him the platform, its that they didn't question him more rigorously or challenge him on his numerous lies and deception. Responsible coverage is the most important thing here.ÔĽŅ

That's true.  I'd say the amount of coverage Farage has on the BBC isn't responsible though and has been the biggest part in making UKIP mainstream.  Although you have reminded me of one of my favourite exchanges on the BBC.  David Dimbleby was hosting a political show and Griffin was on it.  It wen't something like this.

DD - The BNP are against same sex marriage

NG - No we aren't, that's typical misreporting from the marxist BBC

DD - I'm reading it from your website now (quotes the actual passage)

NG - .....well yes but that's not the point

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12 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Except that wouldn't happen, because topics are directed in Question Time. The panellists have to answer the questions put to them, they don't get to rant about any old thing they feel like.

Yeah, but when Farage is on you know what's going to be discussed. They aren't bringing him on to talk about the level of pollution in London, are they? It's to discuss divisive topics that make for interesting viewing.

12 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Also, I've seen and heard Caroline Lucas speak quite a few times, and she's very good. Maybe she's not as bursting with Hitlerian charisma as Farage is, but she's interesting to listen to, and frequently makes excellent arguments.

I guess it depends what you're looking for. There's probably a relatively small number of people who'll tune in regardless of who's on as they're interested in political debate, and who are eager to hear what Carline Lucas has to say, but the majority tune in when there's someone or something controversial going on, don't they?

11 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

It's an upper rating business, brother.  But it is the state broadcaster after all.  I'd say the no name Green has to work the indies because they're being held down by the Big man in Salford, or London, or wherever they are now.  Basically, they are a no name because they haven't been afforded the same exposure as someone who was the leader of a smaller sized party.

I honestly think when it comes to QT a lot of the time, it's the person that's chosen rather than the party they represent. No one really cares about UKIP, they care about Nige. 

Even with similar exposure, most Green MP's or candidates aren't going to capture the publics attention, because they're generally dull "sensible shoes" types. I used to get enough of those berks ringing their bells on their stupid bicycles as they tried to zoom past me on the pavement without actively watching them on an evening.

Audience figures for the show are usually around 2.7 million people. The episode featuring evil-eyed Nick drew 8.3 million viewers! They could have stuck that fucker on PPV and made decent coin!

 

Edited by David

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5 minutes ago, David said:

No one really cares about UKIP, they care about Nige. 

Agreed, as I said earlier in the thread.

2 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

And let's face it, Farage was why people voted UKIP, as soon as he starts his new party that's where they'll all go and UKIP will become even more irrelevant. 

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5 minutes ago, David said:

Yeah, but when Farage is on you know what's going to be discussed. They aren't bringing him on to talk about the level of pollution in London, are they? It's to discuss divisive topics that make for interesting viewing.

Yeah, and the Green rep will discuss the same things if the panel are asked the same questions, which is likely as it's usually the audience supplying them. What concerns them enough to want to ask Farage about it will also get them to ask Lucas about it.

5 minutes ago, David said:

I guess it depends what you're looking for. There's probably a relatively small number of people who'll tune in regardless of who's on as they're interested in political debate, and who are eager to hear what Carline Lucas has to say, but the majority tune in when there's someone or something controversial going on, don't they?

They also like to watch when calm, reasoned people like Caroline Lucas or Natalie Wood chop the shock-jocks and edgelords down. Heels are there to be beaten by the faces, brother.

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