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ColinBollocks

The "Jon Jones gone screwed up again" thread

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Think it was Chael (I know, I know) who said once that USADA came to the gym and Jones saw them pull up outside and he hid under the octagon until the gym was closing and they were locking up. That's even funnier to me than picturing Wanderlei Usain Bolting it out the back door when they came to test him. At least Wandy was out of there. He was probably pulling into a MacDonald's drive thru 10 minutes later. Picturing Jones hiding under the octagon is hilarious. What a fucking idiot he is. Even if Chael's made that up that's how I'm going to picture Jones now whenever this comes up. 

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54 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

Joe Rogan and Schaub have been really good giving some inside info on this.

It makes you wonder how long Jones has been using PED's and whatever else he's been shooting up with. I know the narrative that comes out after a high-profile test failure, usually as a way to rationalize the cheating, is that the majority of fighters are on something, and some of them probably are to a degree although it’s not at the levels it used to be given the testing.

But someone like Jones, who has access to the top-level stuff, has probably been on that top stuff, that’s easier to get away with, for a long time. Even with his first test failure, it wouldn’t have been the first time he was using PED’s, so it really puts into question Jones’ accomplishments in MMA when you have to believe there was a good chance he was on some top-of-the-line PED’s for most of his run at the top.

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A lot of Jones talk:

This interview got me thinking, if Jones is proven to be a legit cheater, does this DQ him from the GOAT discussion? Chances are this isn't the only time he's done PEDs.

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23 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

This interview got me thinking, if Jones is proven to be a legit cheater, does this DQ him from the GOAT discussion? Chances are this isn't the only time he's done PEDs.

It should, but Anderson Silva failed pre and post-fight drug tests for the Nick Diaz fight, for a variety of drugs, including steroids, and nobody felt that should disqualify him from the GOAT discussion. Granted, this is Jones second in-competition drug test failure, but as likely as it is that Jones has been a long-time PED user, it’s almost equally likely that Silva was also using long before he was finally caught out.

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I think, more than anything, it strengthens GSP's claim to the throne, ahead of both of them. 

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I personally think that Demetrious Johnson is the legit greatest of all time as things stand. I know the lighter weight classes don't see the same level of recognition, but the way that guy is pretty much unbeatable in all aspects of his game is insane. Most fighters you can see one or even two weak spots that opponents could take advantage of, but Johnson is a solid 9/10 on most fronts.

Unbeaten in six years, on a thirteen fight unbeaten streak (with one draw that he avenged right away), six stoppages, five unanimous decisions, one split. That kind of record in the modern game is crazy.

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I think he's certainly up there David. He's probably the most complete fighter who's ever lived. 
 

Maybe he doesn't possess the greatest KO power, which is probably his only downside, and even then, it's not really a downside at the weight he's at.

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The GOAT discussion is entirely subjective of course, which is what makes it so much fun to talk about. You really could throw the likes of Jones, Silva and GSP out there as well and it would be hard to argue.

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Aye, David. It's essentially the boxing argument they have in Coming to America.

"Oh, there they go. There they go, every time I start talkin' 'bout MMA, a white man got to pull GSP out they ass."

Edited by ColinBollocks

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You could also throw in Fedor and Velasquez as potential contenders as well. And how about Jose Aldo? Sure, he lost twice comparatively recently, but he was undefeated for ten years, as was Renan Barao.

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I think Velasquez has been severely hampered by his inability to stay healthy in what should have been his prime years. The tear he was on, and how good he looked going through people, he could have been working towards the undisputed 'Greatest'. I would say currently that Cain is behind (in no order) GSP, DJ, Jones, Fedor, Silva and Aldo. If he comes back and beats Stipe, Ngannou etc. After the layoff he has had then I would say he has a claim again. 

Edited by WeeAl

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I'm a big fan of Cain but you also have to take into account that he didn't fight that many guys either. The last couple of years he was fighting he was almost exclusively alternating between Dos Santos and Bigfoot. Seriously, after beating Brock in 2010 he fought only against JDS and Bigfoot between 2011-2015 before the Werdum and Travis Browne fights. Of course, he lost the Werdum fight and as good as he looked against Browne, Browne is the heavyweight Barry Horowitz these days. He can't beat an egg much less Cain Vefuckinglasquez. 

Don't get me wrong, Cain is/was great but I'm honestly not sure anymore where I'd rank him all-time. He did destroy JDS twice, when JDS was at his most scary. So that alone puts him in the convo. But 'best ever'? I just don't think we got enough of him for long enough and against enough different guys. His best shit was that JDS-Bigfoot-JDS-Bigfoot-JDS spell in 2011-13. But that could be misleading. I mean, if Renan Barao only fought alternating fights against Urijah Faber and Eddie Wineland for years on end, and never ran into TJ Dillashaw, I'm sure he'd have had a longer and more dominant run as well.

It's hard to guage. He was great but sometimes I think we put Cain in the GOAT bracket more because we've been told for ages that he should be in the GOAT bracket rather than what he actually did. He had the potential to be the best ever, and as unlikely as it looks now, maybe he can get back there. But I don't know if it's as cut and dry that he's in the mix. He's more a question mark for me, injuries really fucked him, and us, out of that proper killer run. 

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One of my friends who's recently got into MMA in a big way and is consuming voraciously both present and past events is now firmly of the opinion that Velasquez is actually not very good, that his style is very basic and limited, that he's simply the best in a poor field of talent, and that if he'd fought against prime CroCop, prime Nogs, prime Couture, prime Fedor, etc. that he'd get his arse handed to him.

Having not seen enough of those guys in their prime, I honestly don't know, but it sounds wrong. All those commentators who've been watching for years and seen it all can't have just pulled the conclusion that he's GOAT out of their arses, can they? The problem I have, though, is that, watching Cain, his style does seem basic, and it did seem like his limitations were exposed against Werdum, but then again he's beaten most of his competition, so I'm flummoxed. 

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Cain is definitely a great fighter. He's got a ton of talent. People forget what an animal JDS was a few years ago. And Cain crushed him twice. A combined 9 rounds/45+ minutes of dominance over JDS, a guy who was knocking every fucker out back then (including Cain himself in the first fight) proves he was a killer. He had amazing wrestling, better power than people made out, great cardio and pace for a heavyweight (although I think the Cardio Cain thing was overplayed), good speed for a heavy, he meshed his striking and grappling together really well. There's no argument for me that he was/is one of the most skilled heavyweights ever. My problem with calling him the GOAT is that the GOAT thing for me isn't just about whether you've got the skills, it's about what you've actually got done bell to bell. And Cain's unfortunately spent a whopping chunk of his prime years on the bench. 

But as good as he is, I do think he's actually slightly overrated by people who act like it's not even up for debate that he's the best heavyweight ever/the GOAT etc. The excuse making when he loses gets on my tits as well, to be honest. 'Gets knocked out by JDS' becomes 'it was a fluke, Cain was injured, didn't follow the gameplan'. 'Gets outstruck and submitted by Werdum' becomes 'it was the altitude in Mexico, if it was at normal sea level Werdum would be dead now'. It's tiresome. 

I don't even know if I agree he's the best heavyweight ever, let alone the GOAT MMA fighter of all time. People like to shit on Fedor's legacy but what did Cain do that was so much better really? He had the 2 incredible performances against JDS, who was the consensus second best heavyweight at the time. But Fedor did the same thing years prior with the 2 maulings of Big Nog. Plus he dominated prime Cro Cop. People use revisionist thinking to rag on Fedor's wins over Arlovski, Sylvia etc but aside from JDS who did Cain beat who was that great? The Brock win was impressive, Bigfoot wasn't shot when Cain battered him. Fair do's. But Big Nog was far from his best by the time he fought Cain. Travis Browne was floundering badly. Then people will point to Fedor getting rocked by Fujita, Arlovski etc but if we're playing that game then what about Cain getting buzzed 3 times in one fight vs Kongo? 

I don't know. I'm not shitting on Cain by the way. He's one of the best ever. But just making the point that I don't think he's the nailed on #1 like people make out. I think a lot of that's down to the narrative the UFC put out, Rogan especially. I actually think Werdum's resume, despite more losses, rivals Cain's. And I think Miocic has already matched it, if not surpassed it, in the last couple of years alone. The sport doesn't stand still for Cain or anyone. 

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