truthofsin Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 It's a debate, how much money do you think j d boom is drawing. And why should he be paid more than he is drawing. Well i know JD Boom was in one of the top 2 matches on Tidal's last card and they did their biggest crowd to date. So i'd say he definitely helped put bums in seats on that particular night. He's a great comedy wrestler and gets a good reaction from the crowd, i know me and the Mrs looked at his inclusion on Monkey Madness' first show as one of the reasons we chose to attend. The rest of the card ended up pretty stacked, but he was definitely one of the early reasons we chose to attend. So i'd say he earns his pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 14, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted July 14, 2015 It's a debate, how much money do you think j d boom is drawing. And why should he be paid more than he is drawing. Well i know JD Boom was in one of the top 2 matches on Tidal's last card and they did their biggest crowd to date. So i'd say he definitely helped put bums in seats on that particular night. I'd have to disagree with your conclusion. I'd say it's more likely his presence on the card was co-incidental with Tidal's promoters really pulling out all the stops and promoting the show extremely well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthofsin Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 It's a debate, how much money do you think j d boom is drawing. And why should he be paid more than he is drawing. Well i know JD Boom was in one of the top 2 matches on Tidal's last card and they did their biggest crowd to date. So i'd say he definitely helped put bums in seats on that particular night. I'd have to disagree with your conclusion. I'd say it's more likely his presence on the card was co-incidental with Tidal's promoters really pulling out all the stops and promoting the show extremely well. A lot of that promotion was around a match featuring Boom though. So yes he promoted the hell out of it, but people wanted to see it. I've gone along to Tidal many times with Boom being something i was looking forward to. So he's definitely a draw for myself and the Mrs, and i don't think we're the only ones. He's booked on a lot by Tidal also as he clearly is a draw for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 14, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted July 14, 2015 It's a debate, how much money do you think j d boom is drawing. And why should he be paid more than he is drawing. Well i know JD Boom was in one of the top 2 matches on Tidal's last card and they did their biggest crowd to date. So i'd say he definitely helped put bums in seats on that particular night. I'd have to disagree with your conclusion. I'd say it's more likely his presence on the card was co-incidental with Tidal's promoters really pulling out all the stops and promoting the show extremely well. A lot of that promotion was around a match featuring Boom though. So yes he promoted the hell out of it, but people wanted to see it. I've gone along to Tidal many times with Boom being something i was looking forward to. So he's definitely a draw for myself and the Mrs, and i don't think we're the only ones. He's booked on a lot by Tidal also as he clearly is a draw for them. I understand your logic, but unless Tidal are a particularly internet-based promotion, I would have to doubt that the vast majority of crowds came for the match - most promotions that draw well tend to do so because they put out plenty of posters, and people come to them purely on that basis. I don't doubt that there is a core of a fanbase, but in my experience, it's only the casuals who don't know the promotions' names nor their rosters who really fill the seats. Ultimately speaking, I don't think I'd be able to prove that to you, nor your standpoint to me, unless there was an actual survey done of the fans at that show. I'm mainly going off what's been established as a consensus: that the internet is largely ineffectual for drawing large numbers to shows, and that postering and flyering, which tends to draw people who don't know the product all that well, is much more effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthofsin Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I'd have to disagree with your conclusion. I'd say it's more likely his presence on the card was co-incidental with Tidal's promoters really pulling out all the stops and promoting the show extremely well. I understand your logic, but unless Tidal are a particularly internet-based promotion, I would have to doubt that the vast majority of crowds came for the match - most promotions that draw well tend to do so because they put out plenty of posters, and people come to them purely on that basis. I don't doubt that there is a core of a fanbase, but in my experience, it's only the casuals who don't know the promotions' names nor their rosters who really fill the seats. Ultimately speaking, I don't think I'd be able to prove that to you, nor your standpoint to me, unless there was an actual survey done of the fans at that show. I'm mainly going off what's been established as a consensus: that the internet is largely ineffectual for drawing large numbers to shows, and that postering and flyering, which tends to draw people who don't know the product all that well, is much more effective. I can see where you're coming from with this also, but i think it varies from promotion to promotion for sure. In the case of a promotion liek PCW, while they promote the hell out of shows via regular means i.e posters and flyering. They have sold out a show just via their social media before now (Showdown in June). So the internet can be used effectively as a promotional tool, but only once a promotion has reached a certain level. So i guess i'm agreeing with you here in that flyering and postering is a much more effective promotional tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members unfitfinlay Posted July 15, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted July 15, 2015 It's a debate, how much money do you think j d boom is drawing. And why should he be paid more than he is drawing. How much money do you think Heath Slater draws for WWE? If you applied that logic across the industry then hardly anybody would be making a real living. As Carbomb said, wrestling itself is the main draw nowadays, but even if it wasn't, the draw shouldn't be your only consideration. Everybody on the show should be contributing to the quality of it, at least in some way, or why book them? If they are contributing then why shouldn't they get paid? If you can't draw enough to pay everybody and still make a profit then your business model is crap and you shouldn't be running shows. It'd be like opening a restaurant when your profit margin depends on not paying a Chef. Why not leave it to folk that know what they are doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sick love song Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 "as a trainee work as many shows you can no matter how shit they are. You can train as much as you want but the real learning happens in front of a crowd." James mason 2012. Shitarse promotions are a necessary evil. To give wrestlers who are not ready to be booked elsewhere experience. I see where this is coming from, but the idea of Shitarse promotions being necessary bothers me New guys need to get as much experience as possible and when first starting out and taking free jobs is a great way to get that and make a name for yourself. However this doesn't have to be with shitarse promotions. Who are only picking you because you are wrestling for free , where everyone else on the show is a shit arse and you are working with shit arses who will give you shit arse advice and you are never going to learn anything other than how to be a shit arse (over used that now i think) On the other hand there are plenty of promotions who will give hard working, promising , less experienced guys a chance on their shows to work with guys (or girls) who can help them reach another level. (one example I can think of is Southside) whether that is being paid a small amount of working for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Southside crew Posted July 15, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted July 15, 2015 "as a trainee work as many shows you can no matter how shit they are. You can train as much as you want but the real learning happens in front of a crowd." James mason 2012. Shitarse promotions are a necessary evil. To give wrestlers who are not ready to be booked elsewhere experience. I see where this is coming from, but the idea of Shitarse promotions being necessary bothers me New guys need to get as much experience as possible and when first starting out and taking free jobs is a great way to get that and make a name for yourself. However this doesn't have to be with shitarse promotions. Who are only picking you because you are wrestling for free , where everyone else on the show is a shit arse and you are working with shit arses who will give you shit arse advice and you are never going to learn anything other than how to be a shit arse (over used that now i think) On the other hand there are plenty of promotions who will give hard working, promising , less experienced guys a chance on their shows to work with guys (or girls) who can help them reach another level. (one example I can think of is Southside) whether that is being paid a small amount of working for free. Couldn't say it any better - the problem is when guys have been wrestling a few years and still working for free !!!!! I always pay everbody but if I feel somebody is new and earning there stripes then will be on low wage that would get adjusted as they improve. Take 'The Pledge' who works for me , pretty new to the business but I see huge huge potential in him , he has been training for little over a year and looks fantastic - also only 18 years old ! So for myself he has had the opportunity to already wrestle X-Pac , Soldier Ant , El Ligero , Stixx - people that are only help him improve. He is then in a faction with Joseph Conners , Jimmy Havoc and Kay Lee Ray - all of whom will help him on his journey. Truthfully I think even if I didn't pay him it would be worth his while but going to wrestle for some shit arse promotion where he will learn nothing - whats the point ? Simular things could be said for Dan Moloney and Tyler Bate at fight club - both so young yet so good - that's due to FCP giving them that opportunity at such a young age - something that many other promotions are benifiting from. if a guy is new and willing to work for free and get an education then cool , but still working for free another 12 months later shows they have no value in there own ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Sergio Mendacious Posted July 15, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted July 15, 2015 Take 'The Pledge' who works for me Working with some of those lads will really put a shine on him, although it's a shame he'll never get the chance to work with Dusty Rhodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Jaffa Posted July 15, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted July 15, 2015 Take 'The Pledge' who works for me Working with some of those lads will really put a shine on him, although it's a shame he'll never get the chance to work with Dusty Rhodes. A British worker could have done that job. Didn't need to give it to the polish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted July 15, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted July 15, 2015 Take 'The Pledge' who works for me Working with some of those lads will really put a shine on him, although it's a shame he'll never get the chance to work with Dusty Rhodes. A British worker could have done that job. Didn't need to give it to the polish. Think he sounds like he needs his own Mr. Miyagi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian 86 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I always pay everbody but if I feel somebody is new and earning there stripes then will be on low wage that would get adjusted as they improve. Take 'The Pledge' who works for me , pretty new to the business but I see huge huge potential in him , he has been training for little over a year and looks fantastic - also only 18 years old ! So for myself he has had the opportunity to already wrestle X-Pac , Soldier Ant , El Ligero , Stixx - people that are only help him improve. He is then in a faction with Joseph Conners , Jimmy Havoc and Kay Lee Ray - all of whom will help him on his journey. Truthfully I think even if I didn't pay him it would be worth his while but going to wrestle for some shit arse promotion where he will learn nothing - whats the point ? I dont think there is a right and wrong answer on this, it boils down to people's opinions on (dare I use the word...) professionalism. I'm not a promoter so can't comment on the business side so much but I'm of the opinion that everyone on the show should be paid. Obviously a trainee would not be paid the same as everyone else (they may only get travel expenses) but wrestling is a profession and, therefore, people should be treated professionally which means you get paid something. For example, when you get a 'normal' job for the first time you may have a training period, official or otherwise, where you are paid less than everyone else on the understanding that you will be paid according to your ability and experience as you progress. From the trainees perspective the show/promoter definitely matters. If it is a trainee show put on by your school (I know Dropkixx and FWA:A used to do this) then I think it's probably a good thing to work it as your trainers and, potentially, other wrestlers/promoters will be there and knowing you are trainees will (hopefully) offer advice/support as required. Similarly, working for a promotion like Southside who will put you on with veterans is probably a good thing (unless it's Bill DeMott) and it is definitely a learning opportunity so use it and ask for feedback. However, being stuck on as an opening match with another inexperienced trainee to pad out the card for a shitarse is pointless and, actually, potentially dangerous. If you rush through all your movez~ to have an 'amazing' match, get a 'well done lads, here is your sandwich now off you jog' then you havent learnt anything other than kids cheer highspots. And if that becomes 2 or 3 matches on a card because it's cheap for the promoter then, errr what's the next thing up from shitarse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moofasa Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 All is true about south side giving young wrestlers a chance but nobody( bar possibly ref Joel) is having their first ever match in front of a live crowd because a certain standard is expected from the brand. Also I am constantly surprised by the quality names that appear on what are seen as shitararse shows. So there are experienced people to learn from. The promotion in this thread must be one of the worst offenders but have had Storm, stixx etc. booked in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian 86 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 All is true about south side giving young wrestlers a chance but nobody( bar possibly ref Joel) is having their first ever match in front of a live crowd because a certain standard is expected from the brand. Also I am constantly surprised by the quality names that appear on what are seen as shitararse shows. So there are experienced people to learn from. The promotion in this thread must be one of the worst offenders but have had Storm, stixx etc. booked in the past. With Southside, yes. But it does happen that 2 kids/trainees are thrown on together for their first show, I've seen it several times and it's usually quite uncomfortable to watch. It's not just the 'names' being booked that make a difference - 2 trainees wrestling each other on a show with a main event of Doug Williams vs X-Pac is very different to being in a match with one of them. Which itself is very different to a promoter specifically asking a veteran to work with a trainee. Example, if I'm booking someone like Doug, I would expect that, as a professional, he would expect to turn up and work with someone of a similar/appropriate level, not a kid in his first match. However, if I said to him when I make the booking something along the lines of, 'Hi Doug, I've got this kid who is showing some real promise but has no show experience, would you mind working with him in his debut match' it becomes a more professional training scenario. Actually, I think it would be disrespectful to the veteran to expect them to work a trainee without asking them first. I'm not sure where I sit on wrestlers working shit arse shows - if Adam (or anyone else) offers a price the wrestler is prepared to take, whether it be the same or higher than their usual fee, then it's up to them whether to do it or not and I wouldnt think any less of them for it - gotta feed the kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPW Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 Please could this thread be shut down as its causing too many problems for LPW and its show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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