UFC 161: 'Henderson vs Evans'

[METAL ON METAL]

Didn't Alexis Davis (apparently a BJJ black belt) have Rosi Sexton is a triangle choke for almost two and a half minutes? Obviously I didn't see it, but I'm assuming she had it locked up properly? You give any other BJJ black belt practitioner that amount of time and position and it would be fight done within thirty seconds at most.

What about when black belt Vitor Belfort had a long armbar on Jones? What about when black belt GSP had multiple almost armbreaking submissions on Dan Hardy? Some people are just hard to submit, Sexton is one of those people - plus she's a high level grappler anyway. So stop assuming your generalisations on stuff you are too ignorant to watch is actually remotely factual.Your ignorance (and sexism) is astonishing, though not really shocking when coming from you. Jon Fitch is my least favourite fighter to have fought in the UFC, yet I have never went out of my way to not watch his fights on a UFC show. The women have been nothing but fantastic since coming into the UFC and (as everyone here has said) far eclipse the Flyweights - yet I bet you don't skip those fights?Even if they made Rousey vs. Cyborg, I bet you'd find something to moan about.

[jimufctna24]

If the UFC ever stage a bout between Rousey and Cyborg at 140lbs I'll tune in, if they don't, I won't. I'm not missing much, especially with the sheer amount of male MMA we have these days.

Same logic applies for Jones at 205lbs.Rousey I think is more likely to lose at 135lbs than Jones at 205lbs, also Cyborg is not a lock to win all her bouts at 145lbs, she does seem to gas quite easily.

[wandshogun09]

I'm not saying that Carmouche was a scrub at all, I'm saying that there are two female fighters at the very top of the pile, and the rest are miles behind.

Like Cain and JDS at heavyweight then. Are you going to boycott the heavyweight division next?As for Davis vs Sexton, Davis was unable to complete the choke because Sexton (a BJJ brown belt and a very experienced grappler and MMA fighter) was turning her, pressing her against the cage, hammerfisting her face relentlessly and her foot kept popping put from under her knee as she tried to maintain position. Why would you question the legitimacy of Alexis Davis' blackbelt off the basis of one fight (which you haven't bothered to watch) against one of the most experienced veterans in womens MMA, who's also a very good grappler herself? What next? Ronda's Olympic bronze medal in Judo isn't legit? How about Sara McMann's Olympic silver medal in wrestling? "the fighters improve drastically"? The womens division are delivering consistently. There hasn't been a bad womens fight in the UFC yet.

[The Natural]

The simple fact is, that Rousey/Carmouche was a stunning moment in MMA history.

Aye it was. The build to the fight was great and so was the fight. I'm glad I woke up to watch it live, I thought Carmouche had Rousey with the face crank only for Rousey to survive and then the battle for the armbar, attacking vs. defending. It's one of the three best fights this year. I've always liked womens MMA and enjoy them more than the Flyweights.

[David]

David, I have to be honest, I'm not particularly a massive Women's MMA fan either, but you're really having a nightmare here.

This has all stemmed from someone quoting me and mentioning the Rousey/Carmouche fight. All I said was "Yeah, I didn't see that fight, I'm not much of a fan of female MMA."Apart from the initial discussion about Rousey/Cyborg a few months back I haven't really commented on any of the female fights in the UFC. I haven't went out of my way to badmouth them, I simply didn't comment.I'm only commenting now because people are asking me about them.

The way you're shrugging off the Rousey/Carmouche fight in particular really is embarrassing to say the least. Normally I think your responses are largely balanced, but this time you're being ridiculous.

You have to understand that I'm not disputing that it was a landmark fight. I'm simply saying that I didn't think it would be competitive, and I thought Rousey would win via first frame armbar (which she did, obviously).I don't think there is much by way of real, UFC-level operators below Rousey or Cyborg. If Rousey didn't exist we wouldn't have female fights in the UFC. Why? Because, as Dana himself said "there aren't enough elite level competitors". That hasn't changed overnight. Whilst I understand the UFC have to promote the shit out of the likes of Carmouche and Tate in order to sell their golden girl, it doesn't change the fact that none of them are even close to being as talented as she is, and that the UFC wouldn't have entertained any of them pre-Rousey, regardless of what their promotional material may want us to believe.

Your ignorance (and sexism) is astonishing, though not really shocking when coming from you.

I have a history of ignorance and sexism, do I? Also, I've not said that I'm not watching female MMA because it's females who are actually fighting, have I? I simply said that I don't think there's nearly enough fighters operating at a high enough level in that division to interest me. I've even said that if the level of fighters improve I'll maybe tune in then, so drag your arse down from your high horse and stop being a twat.

Jon Fitch is my least favourite fighter to have fought in the UFC, yet I have never went out of my way to not watch his fights on a UFC show.

And? That's your call. I certainly wouldn't be leaping aboard my high horse if anyone says they didn't tune in to see him face Josh Burkman at the weekend, or if they had been guilty of fast forwarding some of his stuff in the UFC.If you don't like him, don't fucking watch him. The beauty of MMA is that there are fights and fighters to accommodate all fans.

The women have been nothing but fantastic since coming into the UFC and (as everyone here has said) far eclipse the Flyweights - yet I bet you don't skip those fights?

I have been guilty of that in the past, yes. Are you going to accuse me of having something against small people now?With the sheer amount of fights we get, both boxing & MMA on a weekly basis I simply don't have the time to sit and watch stuff that doesn't interest me. I'm not a teenager, I don't live with my parents or by myself, so I don't have the time. I run a business and a house, so if it's a choice between watching Rousey armbar someone she should be beating 9 times out 10 anyway or watching a boxing match that I've got sitting I'll happily switch over and save some time.

Same logic applies for Jones at 205lbs.Rousey I think is more likely to lose at 135lbs than Jones at 205lbs, also Cyborg is not a lock to win all her bouts at 145lbs, she does seem to gas quite easily.

No, Jones is the most talented fighter in a deep, talented, tested division. There's a difference there in my opinion.

Like Cain and JDS at heavyweight then. Are you going to boycott the heavyweight division next?

I do forward through a lot of the lower-level heavyweight stuff, yes.I know I've managed to draw out the mock outrage in a lot of you here, but I'm sticking with what I said. Rousey and Cyborg are the two female fighters operating at a high level. The rest don't really come close, something that Dana White agreed with before he saw dollars to be made in Rousey.As I said, you lot watch and enjoy the female fights, and that's cool. I checked out some female MMA before the UFC brought it in and it didn't interest me, and that hasn't changed. I don't tune in to Invicta either.Apologies if that bothers any of you

[lambyUK]

David, I have to be honest, I'm not particularly a massive Women's MMA fan either, but you're really having a nightmare here.

This has all stemmed from someone quoting me and mentioning the Rousey/Carmouche fight. All I said was "Yeah, I didn't see that fight, I'm not much of a fan of female MMA."

No David, it really didn't come from that quote...at least not for me.In fact, it came from this quite preposterous quote :-"Nope, and when I checked the results the next day it appeared that I didn't miss much. First round armbar? Yup."If you can't see that then this whole thing is a complete waste of time. For starters it reeks of real pretention, whilst also just assuming you didn't miss much as it went the way you expected it?Madness.

[Rey_Piste]

Looking at your comments David and having seen the fight, she didn't have that triangle in properly. Same goes for the rear naked that was locked in near the end of the second. Not all black belts are equal, the difference between gi and no gi is pretty big. So when it comes to MMA I would give the advantage to some guy with a 10th planet brown belt over some Gracie black belt. The gi gives you extra friction when it comes to getting the foot under the knee properly when doing that leg triangle. There are also a lot of chokes and manoeuvres that can only be done with a gi. Women's MMA is where male MMA was 10 years ago, back then it was only a few guys in each weight division who dominated. I see it being at least another 5 years before female MMA is near the standard of male MMA today. This is simply because their isn't the amount of talent out there. It will take time for those women who are watching Rousey etc to get into the sport much like a lot of the current generation who watched in the Liddel/Ortiz era.

[jimufctna24]

Its not that you are not into Women's MMA that bothers people David, heck I only have a passing interest and only really are gripped when Rousey is fighting, its more that statements about lack of competitive nature is where people disagree. Plus I do not think it is written in stone that no one at 135lbs can challenge Rousey, there are plenty of match-ups for her to face to test her in different areas. It just so happens her next fight is a bit of a formality, but none more than Jones vs Chael or GSPvs Diaz.I can agree the level of skill is not that up to par of other classes, but they offer more talent than a lot of lumbering Heavyweights as stated. Is Sexton, Davis and Tate say any less skilled a fighter as Ben Rothwell for example? For me they show a more well rounded game and more refined technique.

[David]

In fact, it came from this quite preposterous quote :-"Nope, and when I checked the results the next day it appeared that I didn't miss much. First round armbar? Yup."If you can't see that then this whole thing is a complete waste of time. For starters it reeks of real pretention, whilst also just assuming you didn't miss much as it went the way you expected it?Madness.

What "thing"? There is no "thing" here mate, I simply don't like female MMA. I don't think there's enough talented individuals to make me want to watch, and the idea of seeing Ronda Rousey armbar her way through everyone the UFC puts her up against isn't interesting to me.If that gif that was posted earlier is the only real threat that was posed in this fight that supposedly have everyone losing their shit, then I'm not impressed. Sorry about that. To each their own I guess. I'm also sorry if the fact I'll not be watching the Rousey/Tate fight either because I pretty much know it'll end in a first frame armbar like their first fight offends anyone. It's not anything personal against women competing in MMA, it's just because I don't rate the level of fighter highly.

Its not that you are not into Women's MMA that bothers people David, heck I only have a passing interest and only really are gripped when Rousey is fighting, its more that statements about lack of competitive nature is where people disagree.

Jim, I don't believe any of the other females in the division come close to Rousey talent-wise. At all.

Plus I do not think it is written in stone that no one at 135lbs can challenge Rousey, there are plenty of match-ups for her to face to test her in different areas.

Oh, she could lose a fight. It's MMA, and anyone can lose a fight, but the odds are stacked heavily in favour of her armbarring everyone for the foreseeable future. This suits the UFC, of course, as she's the golden girl who draws in the $$'s, and that's fine. The type of fan who is ready to believe that Liz Carmouche, Rosi Sexton and Meisha Tate are all of a sudden elite-level competitors who can challenge Rousey, despite them not being worth a fuck a few months ago according to the UFC President can continue to watch on and buy into the hype.They're the same fools who bought into the Chael Sonnen hype, and who bought into Nick Diaz being a threat to St-Pierre. All willing to throw down their money after getting hot under the collar at some superbly produced UFC hype videos. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as they feel they got their moneys worth.

It just so happens her next fight is a bit of a formality, but none more than Jones vs Chael or GSPvs Diaz.

Yup, another two fights that I'd pretty much said were jokes in the months leading up to them happening.

I can agree the level of skill is not that up to par of other classes, but they offer more talent than a lot of lumbering Heavyweights as stated.

I'm not about to sit and watch two lumbering heavyweights fight either though...

Is Sexton, Davis and Tate say any less skilled a fighter as Ben Rothwell for example? For me they show a more well rounded game and more refined technique.

I'm not exactly doing cartwheels when I hear Rothwell is fighting either, and I certainly wouldn't be busting a gut to watch him face Cain for the title. Sure, he may manage to connect with a few shots, and maybe even manage a takedown, but the result wouldn't be in question.

[lambyUK]

Again David, you're simply ignoring what I'm telling you. I don't care if you don't like WMMA, I'm not a big fan either.My problem is with the arrogant post I quoted above where you make assumptions about something you've yet to see. On top of that you are making assumptions about a fight simply from a gif FFS. You simply cannot make an assumption of a fight that you haven't seen and that's a FACT.Does a gif include all the variables that happens in an event including the crowd's reaction? No it doesn't.I'd have more respect if you left it at something like "I don't like WMMA and simply won't watch it as I don't find it enjoyable".Edit The "thing" i'm going on about is this waste of a debate.

[METAL ON METAL]

I simply said that I don't think there's nearly enough fighters operating at a high enough level in that division to interest me. I've even said that if the level of fighters improve I'll maybe tune in then, so drag your arse down from your high horse and stop being a twat.

'Think' being the key word there. How on Earth would you know unless you actually watched a fight every now and again? And how would you know the level of fighters improve? If your response is akin to hearing reports online, then that's incredibly negligent on your behalf.You continue to criticise something have never even watched (nor will even give a chance to) and I'm the one being a twat?

[jimufctna24]

Jim, I don't believe any of the other females in the division come close to Rousey talent-wise. At all.

Fair enough, I maybe tempted to agree.But I do not think Rousey has been tested enough for that to be proven in stone, she has never been out the first round and her striking game has yet to e tested fully. For all we know one of these new signings could beat her. I agree its unlikely, but people said the same thing about Brock Lesnar then he was exposed to a certain degree.I agree with Lamby, this is all a bit futile. Its pretty simple David does not like WMMA, whether I agree with his reasons why or whether I think his points are rational on the subject, I have covered now. So I am out of this one.

[David]

Again David, you're simply ignoring what I'm telling you. I don't care if you don't like WMMA, I'm not a big fan either.My problem is with the arrogant post I quoted above where you make assumptions about something you've yet to see. On top of that you are making assumptions about a fight simply from a gif FFS. You simply cannot make an assumption of a fight that you haven't seen and that's a FACT.Does a gif include all the variables that happens in an event including the crowd's reaction? No it doesn't.I'd have more respect if you left it at something like "I don't like WMMA and simply won't watch it as I don't find it enjoyable".

If you take the time to look back you'll see that my original quote, which I posted earlier, was the start of this debate. It all went something like this;

Yeah, I didn't see that fight, I'm not much of a fan of female MMA.

You didn't see it? I recommend you try watching it. Who knows, you might like this one. Have you watched any other UFC fights involving women?

Nope, not a one.

David, you didn't watch Rousey vs Carmouche? Fair enough if you're not into womens MMA but I thought you'd have at least given it a look being the first womens UFC fight and that. And you're missing out if you didn't see Zingano vs Tate. If you're going to give any womens fight a chance from this year, make it that one.

Nope, and when I checked the results the next day it appeared that I didn't miss much. First round armbar? Yup.

From this point it escalated.You'll also note that I didn't say "when I checked the results the next day it's obvious that I didn't miss much." or "when I checked the results the next day I clearly didn't miss much.", I said it appeared that I didn't miss much, which is completely different.

'Think' being the key word there. How on Earth would you know unless you actually watched a fight every now and again? And how would you know the level of fighters improve? If your response is akin to hearing reports online, then that's incredibly negligent on your behalf.

Of course my opinion isn't based on online reports. I've stated that I have watched FMMA in the past, which means that I've seen the likes of Tate, Gurgel, Coenen, Kedzie, Kaufman etc and I know that they aren't really operating at a high enough level to beat the likes of Cyborg or Rousey.If I see a fresh name coming into the equation I'll check them out for sure, but I'm not interested in seeing the same girls I saw fight years ago on other promotions, the same fighters that Dana deemed not good enough to warrant a female MMA division in the UFC. Now because White needs bodies for his golden goose to beat I'm supposed to buy into them as being competitive? Nah, I don't think so. I probably would have checked out the Zingano/Rousey fight simply because it's someone who's relatively new to the sport, unbeaten and who has stopped all but one of her opponents, but that fight was scratched and we're now getting a rematch of a bout that Rousey won without much trouble last time.

You continue to criticise something have never even watched (nor will even give a chance to) and I'm the one being a twat?

Well, you insinuated that I was sexist and ignorant without any real basis, which I think qualifies you as a twat, yeah.

[Rey_Piste]

There currently isn't the depth of talent in women's MMA at the minute. Many women regularly drop a lot of weight just to get fights, there's plenty of cases of women fighting one week at 125 and less than a month later fighting at 140, since it's been the only way they can get regular fights. With Rousey in the UFC you've got the same situation you had with Carano in Strikeforce where there's only really one big name.

[wandshogun09]

anyone can lose a fight, but the odds are stacked heavily in favour of her armbarring everyone for the foreseeable future. This suits the UFC, of course, as she's the golden girl who draws in the $$'s, and that's fine.

How do you mean stacked in her favour? She's the favourite in her fights because she's a very good fighter. She's put in the hard work and she's reaping the rewards. She's beating good fighters. Tate, Kaufman, Carmouche - they're all credible, skilled, tough challengers. They put the graft in in the gym like the men do and they've all had some really exciting fights. Rousey is on top because she's fucking good. Why do you feel the need to play down her opponents and diminish her wins instead of giving her credit for beating them? How do you knock fighters you admit you don't even watch?

The type of fan who is ready to believe that Liz Carmouche, Rosi Sexton and Meisha Tate are all of a sudden elite-level competitors who can challenge Rousey, despite them not being worth a fuck a few months ago according to the UFC President can continue to watch on and buy into the hype.They're the same fools who bought into the Chael Sonnen hype, and who bought into Nick Diaz being a threat to St-Pierre. All willing to throw down their money after getting hot under the collar at some superbly produced UFC hype videos. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as they feel they got their moneys worth.

I like you Dave but this sort of talk makes you sound like a bit of a snob half the fun of being a fight fan is getting caught up in the hype. That 'type of fan' isn't any worse or better for enjoying the build up to fights, even if they are likely going to be one sided. And why shouldn't people think these women have a shot against Rousey? She's certainly the favourite but she's still relatively new to MMA compared to some women fighters. At some point someone's going to make her look human. What happens when Rousey faces someone like Sara McMann? An Olympic medal wrestler who could possibly nullify Ronda's Judo. Or Cat Zingano, who has good BJJ and is dangerous and powerful on the feet. Down the line there's Holly Holm, 30 odd wins as a boxer, 3-0 MMA, trains out of Jackson's. What happens if someone takes Ronda past round 1? Bloodies her up? I don't mean this in a dickheaded way but do you watch any fights if you think one guy is definitely going to win? Or do you always decide what's going to happen pre-fight and don't bother tuning in if you think it's a foregone conclusion? You'd have missed some amazing moments over the years going on like that. Serra-GSP 1, Douglas-Tyson, Werdum-Fedor etc.We're all going to go around in circles here. You don't like womens MMA, fair enough. There's not huge depth in the division currently, valid point. Doesn't mean there can't be some exciting fights though, and for a division which is still young, most fans are finding the womens fights some of the most consistently entertaining to watch, which isn't bad for a division lacking in depth. It's growing all the time, Invicta are a good breeding ground, this next season of TUF could get more women taking up MMA, as could Ronda's new found 'fame'. Welcome back ReyPiste, where have you been?